ADOX CHS 100 PET KB Supercoating cannot be applied to

comfortablynumb · 2010-04-04T08:43:01+00:00

Guten Morgen und frohe Ostern zusammen, ich habe ein Problem mit dem Kleinbildfilm CHS 100 (Charge 910642). Auf dem entwickelten Negativ bleiben winzige Fle...

comfortablynumb

Good morning and happy Easter to you all, I’m having a problem with the CHS 100 35mm film (batch 910642). Tiny spots – or specks, whatever you call them – remain on the developed negative. Countless white spots are then visible on the print. I’m assuming these are residues of the blue gelatin (supercoating). I developed the films as follows: - Placed them in the Jobo tank - Pre-rinsed for two or three minutes with cold water at 20°C - Drained off the now blue water - Developed with APH 09 - Developed for 13 minutes (4 tilts per minute) - Drained off the now pink developer - Stopped with cold water at 20°C for 1 minute - Drained off; now clear - Fixed for 4 minutes I think I’ve carried out the development process correctly so far. But how do I remove the blue emulsion without leaving any residue, so that I have flawless negative strips? Do I need to pre-rinse several times, but for shorter periods? I’d be grateful for any tips you can offer. Best regards, Andreas

Tandemfahren

Hi Andreas, Erm, does the CHS100 even have a supercoating? KB film? Apart from that, that wouldn’t really cause black spots on the negative. What do the spots look like? Sounds more like a problem with the water quality (do you have a particle filter in there?) My advice would be to skip the pre-heating – that just increases the contrast and puts unnecessary strain on the emulsion. I don’t use the 100 myself, but I’d never skip the 25 and that works brilliantly. Just to be on the safe side, do a test development in parallel using a batch of APH09 and distilled water. my 2cts Frank

comfortablynumb

Hi Andreas, Hi Frank Erm, does the CHS100 even have a supercoating? KB film? Hmm, at least it has a thick blue gelatin (-) emulsion. That said, that wouldn’t really cause black spots on the negative. No, I meant there are white spots on the print. On the negative, of course, there are black spots. What do the spots look like? Irregularly shaped Sounds more like a problem with the water quality (do you have a particle filter in there?) No, the water is spotless here. I didn’t have this problem with the Foma 100 or Foma 400 I used before. The Foma didn’t have the blue emulsion either. My advice would be to skip the pre-rinse – it just boosts the contrast and puts unnecessary strain on the emulsion. But how can the blue emulsion be removed without leaving any residue? I suspect there were gelatine residues in the Jobo tank, which the fixer then permanently fixed onto the negative strip.

MarcS

Hi Andreas, There are loads of threads and at least as many different answers online regarding stains. It’s usually down to the water, developer or fixer. I use CHS very often (25/50/100). I never pre-rinse the films and they’re absolutely clear after development. I usually develop with Ultrafin+ or Rodinal (identical in composition to APH 09) How long do you rinse for? Residues of the blue emulsion wouldn’t cause black spots either, but the negatives would have a slight fog, which isn’t really a problem. But perhaps the chemists here on the forum know more Regards Marc PS...what ASA do you use for exposure? 14 minutes is quite a long time, or do you perform significant dilution?

zensusa

Hi Andreas, Hi Frank Erm, does the CHS100 even have a supercoating? KB film? Hmm, at least it has a thick blue gelatin (–) emulsion. That said, that wouldn’t really cause black spots on the negative. No, I meant there are white spots on the print. On the negative, of course, there are black spots. What do the spots look like? Irregularly shaped Sounds more like a problem with the water quality (do you have a particle filter in there?) No, the water’s spotless where we are. We didn’t have this problem with the Foma 100 or Foma 400 we used before. The Foma didn’t have the blue emulsion either. My advice would be to skip the pre-rinse – that just boosts the contrast and puts unnecessary strain on the emulsion. But how can the blue emulsion be removed without leaving any residue? I suspect there were gelatine residues in the Jobo tank, which the fixer then permanently fixed onto the negative strip.

zensusa

Hi Andreas, Hi Frank Erm, does the CHS100 even have a supercoating? KB film? Hmm, at least it has a thick blue gelatin (–) emulsion. That said, that wouldn’t really cause black spots on the negative. No, I meant there are white spots on the print. On the negative, of course, there are black spots. What do the spots look like? Irregularly shaped Sounds more like a problem with the water quality (do you have a particle filter in there?) No, the water is spot on here. I didn’t have this problem with the Foma 100 or Foma 400 I used before. The Foma didn’t have the blue emulsion either. My advice would be to skip the pre-rinse – that just boosts the contrast and puts unnecessary strain on the emulsion. But how can the blue emulsion be removed without leaving any residue? I suspect there were traces of gelatin in the Jobo tank, which the fixer then permanently fixed onto the negative strip.

zensusa

Hello Andreas. I’ve been working with Efke roll and sheet films for about 15 years (the ADOX CHS series is also Efke). The ISO 100 film is my favourite in this speed range because of its classic grain, excellent tonal range, etc. All my Efke films are always pre-soaked without any problems, and they are by no means as sensitive as is often described in forum posts. On the other hand, I am currently experiencing the same problem with Efke roll film batch 910635 as you describe. The fact is, however, that this problem is not caused by pre-soaking. It wouldn’t help either if you were to use a filter or distilled water, for example, as it is simply a ‘manufacturing defect’ (whatever the technical nature of it may be). Unfortunately, these things happen time and again with Efke’s ‘artisan’ productions, which are not run like the mass-production lines at Kodak or Fuji. I had the same problem about six years ago with a batch of roll films. However, the sheet films I’m currently using don’t have this problem (as they’re from a different batch), despite the same processing and equipment. In other words, you’ll just have to live with this problem/defect. I now only use the remaining roll films from this batch 910635 for “unimportant” work, because, strictly speaking, all the images on these films are (from a technical point of view) rubbish and unsellable, as removing the spots from the prints would take far too much time and effort and certainly wouldn’t always turn out perfectly. Best regards, Lothar

Tandemfahren

Good morning, everyone! So if it’s as Lothar says, then those affected should shout really loudly Mirko! MIIIIIIRKOOO! — don’t you think? — I mean, file a complaint. At Impex in Berlin, they’ll find out in a flash whether there’s something wrong with the batch. By the way – the blue emulsion is just the antihalation, isn’t it? It comes off by itself during development anyway, doesn’t it? Wishing you brilliant light, Frank

comfortablynumb

Hi Lothar, The ADOX CHS 100 is the best film I’ve ever used. What a range of greys, what crisp negatives. Not a hint of dullness, and the prints are a feast of grey tones. But I really don’t understand that blue emulsion at all. I’ve never seen anything like it in the 20-plus years I’ve been shooting with 35mm film. What on earth is that stuff that turns your fingers blue if you touch it with wet fingers? Is it: - the supercoating - the antihalation coating - ?? I might be mixing up the terminology a bit. I’d also considered pre-wetting it 5 or 6 times, repeatedly pouring the water away until it’s supposedly clear. Yet there’s still a risk that some tiny particles might remain on the film. And afterwards, the print would be worthless and all that effort for nothing. But it’s good to read that you’re familiar with this problem too. Mirko??? You’ve got to help out and clear this up. :) Best regards Andreas

Hello Andreas. I’ve been working with Efke roll and sheet films for about 15 years (the ADOX CHS series is also Efke). The 100 speed film is my preferred choice in this sensitivity class because of its classic grain, excellent tonal range, etc. All my Efke films are always pre-soaked without any problems, and they are by no means as sensitive as is often described in forum posts. On the other hand, I am currently experiencing the same problem with Efke roll film batch 910635 as you describe. The fact is, however, that this problem is not caused by pre-soaking. It wouldn’t help either if you were to use a filter or distilled water, for example, as it is simply a ‘manufacturing defect’ (whatever the technical nature of it may be). Unfortunately, these things happen time and again with Efke’s ‘artisan’ productions, which are not run like the mass-production lines at Kodak or Fuji. I had the same problem about six years ago with a batch of roll film. However, the sheet films I’m currently using don’t have this problem (as they’re from a different batch), despite the same processing and equipment. In other words, you’ll just have to live with this problem/defect. I now only use the remaining roll films from this batch 910635 for “unimportant” work, as all the images on these films are (technically speaking) rubbish and unsellable; removing the spots from the prints would take far too much time and effort, and certainly wouldn’t always yield perfect results. Best regards, Lothar

comfortablynumb

Hi Andreas, Hi Marc, How long do you rinse for? Three or four minutes before developing. After fixing, definitely ten minutes with plain water, then plain water with a wetting agent, and finally another rinse with distilled water plus a wetting agent. The whole process takes place inside the Jobotank. P.S. ... what ASA do you expose at? 14 minutes is quite a long time, or do you dilute it that much? Yes, that is quite a long time, but the dilution is also high: 1+40. I expose at 100 ASA.

comfortablynumb

Hello everyone, I’ve developed another roll of film and extended the washing time. Despite this, there are still tiny particles on the negative strip. I’ve just had a look at it with an 8x magnifying glass. I processed the film as follows: - Loaded it into the Jobo tank. - 1st pre-rinse: soaked for 2 mins, then drained off the blue water. - 2nd pre-rinse: rinsed continuously for 1 minute, drained off slightly blue water. - 3rd pre-rinse: rinsed for another minute, drained off clear water. - Development - Stopped with water. - Further water changes - Fixing - Washing as usual Afterwards, I was once again amazed at just how fantastic this film is!!! What tonal range. Crisp blacks, wonderful contrasts. A marvellous film..... but... it was all for nothing. Because despite extended rinsing and draining, the blue gelatine (…) wasn’t completely dissolved. Now I’ve tried everything and I’m at my wits’ end.. :) ? Mirko.... can you please help solve this mystery? Thanks and good night from Unna, Andreas

mdeutgen

Have you ever tried processing the film without any pre-treatment? Maybe that’s the reason! I’ve always developed my 100-speed film straight away using APH09 at 1:40 and haven’t had these problems. That said, once the job was done, the developer came out of the bottle looking quite strong. However, I haven’t used 35mm film for a year, so I’m not familiar with the very latest version. My experience is with 35mm film, and the films were bought under the Efke label. Martin

MarcS

Hello everyone, I’ve developed another roll of film and extended the washing time. Despite this, there are still tiny particles on the negative strip. I’ve just had a look at it with an 8x magnifying glass. I processed the film as follows: - Placed it in the Jobo tank. - 1st pre-rinse: soaked for 2 mins, then drained off the blue water. - 2nd pre-rinse: rinsed continuously for 1 minute, drained off slightly blue water. - 3rd pre-rinse: rinsed for another minute, drained off clear water. - Development - Stop with water. - Further water changes - Fixing - Washing as usual Afterwards, I was once again amazed at just how fantastic this film is!!! What tonal range. Crisp blacks, wonderful contrasts. A marvellous film..... but... it was all for nothing. Because despite extended rinsing and draining, the blue gelatine (?) wasn’t completely dissolved. Now I’ve tried everything and I’m at my wits’ end.. :) ? Mirko.... can you please help solve this mystery? Thanks and good night from Unna, Andreas

Hello Andreas, what I actually wanted to say is (assuming your spots are tiny dots in varying numbers) it’s definitely not down to pre-wetting! It comes from the developer or fixer (crystallisation?!) I’m familiar with the problem, but fortunately it’s very rare. It’s not down to the water in my case, as I always use the same water. I then prepare fresh developer and fixer, which also helps. Regards Marc Here’s an example of the “dots” (highly enlarged scan) ..looks like fine dust.... [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]

comfortablynumb

Hi Marc, Interesting. I’ve already replaced the fixer. I’ll be developing the next roll of film in the next few days. Hopefully it’s just down to the crystallised fixer. The problem started at the same time as I switched from Foma to ADOX film, so it’s a bit of a nightmare. We’ll have to wait and see... Thanks for the tip! Regards Andreas Hi Andreas, what I actually wanted to say is (assuming your spots are tiny dots in varying numbers) it’s definitely not down to pre-wetting! It’s coming from the developer or fixer (crystallised?!) I’m familiar with the problem, but fortunately it’s very rare. It’s not down to the water in my case, as I always use the same water. I then prepare fresh developer and fixer, which helps. Regards Marc Here’s an example of the ‘dots’ (highly enlarged scan) ..looks like fine dust.... [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]

Wolfram

Hi, Silly question: Can you absolutely rule out dust in the camera or in the lab? Regards, Wolfram

comfortablynumb

Hi Wolfram, I can definitely rule that out. :-) Best regards, Andreas

Hi, Silly question: Can you absolutely rule out dust in the camera or in the lab? Regards, Wolfram

comfortablynumb

Hello everyone, Another roll of film! I’ve just opened a new bottle of fixer and prepared a fresh batch. Then I developed the film, using pre-rinse solutions, stopped it with water, finished it off with the fresh fixer, keyed it… and lo and behold: those little specks are back on the film strip. :) :( Oh, I could just cry. All that work, the lovely subjects, the great opportunities, the effort and hard work... Tomorrow I’ll get straight in touch with FOTOIMPEX and write a letter, with a strip of film in the envelope. This issue needs to be sorted out at last. Best regards Andreas

docsteel

Given the circumstances, I’d like to dig this ancient thread out again: € In June, I bought 10 rolls of CHS 100 roll films. Developed (without pre-wetting) in Adonal 1+50 for 10 minutes at 20°C, stopped in Ilfostop for 1 minute, Ilford Rapid Fixer for 5 minutes, Ilford Washaid for 2 minutes, washing for >10 minutes, Tetenal Mirasol for 1 minute. Afterwards, I noticed a greasy, colourless emulsion that wouldn’t come off no matter what I tried. € I then simply washed it off under running lukewarm water between my thumb and forefinger. € If I have to do this with every Adox CHS, that film is history for me! Has anyone else had similar experiences?

HenningH

For some reason, the search function isn’t working properly anymore... ? This transparent emulsion on the back is (as I understand it) the supercoating, and it’s meant to stay on the film. If the camera slightly scratches the back of the film, these scratches can swell up after development and shouldn’t cause any further problems. ? There’s a thread about this somewhere...

GleisNeun

After trying out the CHS 100, I was unfortunately forced to conclude that my negatives show exactly the kind of ‘spots’ described above. On one roll, I also found sticky patches on the film that I couldn’t remove. Developed according to the instructions using Adonal and Adofix.

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