Old colour pictures with a red cast

Gast · 2010-01-21T15:38:41+00:00

Hallo zusammen, wie wahrscheinlich den meisten hier bekannt, verdrehen Farbabzüge die in den 70ger Jahren gemacht wurden, häufig die Farben Richtung rot. I...

Gast

Hello everyone, As most of you probably know, colour prints made in the 1970s often have a reddish tinge. I have a huge number of these old photos; it’s a shame how they look... My questions: I’ve noticed that most of these photos with a reddish tinge are on Agfa paper... Is it known that this particular type of paper is especially prone to this? Many other photos from the 1950s and 1960s, as well as those from the 1980s onwards, don’t have this red cast... I also have quite a few slides that are quite red too..... Then again, there are some that are still just as good as they were about 40 years ago. Is it a problem with the manufacturer (Agfa), or a lab issue...? I still have most of the negatives. Is it likely that the colours have shifted there too? I haven’t tried it yet... But I didn’t really want to go to the trouble of having all the photos reprinted, apart from the cost. What could you actually do with such pictures, assuming the negatives are no longer available or have also changed colour? Is there a laboratory-based approach? I imagine (as a layman) that the substances that altered the colours must somehow be restored to their original chemical form... Scanning the old photos and attempting to process them in black and white only works to a limited extent; you can largely remove the red, but the other colours end up looking very unnatural... Perhaps someone has an idea...? Many thanks, Regards, Wolfgang

Wolfgg

Hello, namesake, This could be the Agfa MCN 310, 312, etc. Type 4, which was used from 1972 onwards; I also processed this from 1974 and have noticed a significant decline in cyan density despite storing it in the dark. I am not aware of any measures that would restore the cyan dye to its original density. You can read more details here in the 80 MB file (e.g. p. 28): http://www.wilhelm-research.com/book_toc.html Best regards, Wolfgang

Gast

Hi Wolfgang, The book is, of course, very comprehensive, but it doesn’t really help me much right now... I’ve heard about the fading cyan too, but I think there’s more to it than that... Here’s an extreme example of a photo and what I managed to do with it digitally. Not very successful... I’ll have to try scanning the negative now. Strangely enough, it’s mainly pictures taken with a pocket camera that are affected... But that surely has nothing to do with the film... Perhaps most of the pocket film was printed on that rubbish Agfa paper... Maybe some important pictures can still be saved after all... Regards, Wolfgang [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND] [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]

Gast

...Here’s another photo I’ve scanned from the negative and edited slightly... [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]

Andreas_23

Hi Wolfgang, I’ve got an album like that too, with those ‘monochrome’ red-brown photos. Around 1974, Agfa paper from Foto Quelle. I don’t think there’s much you can do about it (apart from scanning and editing). But as long as you’ve still got the negatives, you could always have new prints made. At least in my case, the negatives are still in good condition. Best regards, Andreas

Gast

... I didn't think I was the only one with this problem either... :ph34r: There are probably millions, or even billions, of photos all over the world that look like this. However, it seems (at least in my case) that ALL the affected photos are on AGFA paper... Coincidentally, from a series of photos that are all red, I have one that for some reason was printed on Fuji paper... and that one is fine. I probably had it reprinted back then. All the other photos that are OK are on Fuji, KODAK or other papers. I also had a lot of photos developed at Quelle... Could it be that only Quelle was supplied with that rubbish??? But neither Quelle nor Agfa can really be held to account now, as they’re both bankrupt... ...And you can always put it down to the fact that colours change over time... But the colours from other manufacturers obviously don’t. Something must have gone wrong back then... I’ll have to ask a friend who worked at Agfa for a long time; perhaps he knows something. I’ve got one more question: a few of my slides are affected too... Is it the same effect? I remember buying Revue transparency films quite often back then... But only one series from a specific period is affected; all the others are still OK. It’s just the negatives – it’s hard to judge them now, as they all look a bit red somehow.... Regards Wolfgang

Wolfgg

We can, however, identify a few key points: 1) There is no known method that restores the cyan density in the paper print 2) Scanning the paper print and ‘refreshing’ it on a computer only makes sense if there is still a residue of cyan density remaining; otherwise, the apparent red cast will only be made worse by extensive overlaying with cyan 3) The only viable option is to use the colour negative, which is hopefully still intact; using modern methods (PC), this can usually produce a print with significantly better contrast and colour reproduction than the original (fresh) print As a general rule: In colour processes (negative/positive and reversal), with the exception of Kodachrome film and Cibachrome paper, all unused colour couplers remain in the emulsion after processing. These are colourless and therefore invisible, and can have unpleasant long-term effects on the dye image. They can attack the colorants (resulting in fading) or they may still react after many years and develop their colour. The Agfa CT18 from around 1969 shows the latter tendency in my experience; the magenta coupler ‘awakens’ after 40 years and increasingly covers the entire slide with a magenta cast. The home processor knows: the best method for neutralising colour couplers in the long term is still formalin. Regards, Wolfgang

Gast

1) There is no known process that can restore the cyan density in the printed image

Are you sure? We have consulted the Agfa employee. There appear to be one or two patents, but no further details are known.

2) Scanning the paper print and ‘refreshing’ it on the PC only makes sense if there is still a residual cyan residue that can be enhanced; otherwise, the apparent red cast will only be made worse by extensive overlaying with cyan

I’ve had to learn that the hard way too... Some are so red that there isn’t much to be salvaged.

3) The only viable option is to use the colour negative, which hopefully is still intact, from which – using today’s tools (a computer) – a print with significantly better contrast and colour reproduction can usually be produced compared to the original (fresh) print

I think I still have most of the negatives. However, there are a great many pocket films among them. Strangely enough, it is precisely most of the images from pocket films that have turned red; probably a ‘spurious correlation’. Most of my negatives (including 35mm) also have a red cast, but I’m not sure to what extent that’s inevitable and whether it’s filtered out during the production of the prints; I’m not familiar with the process. I really must have a film reprinted as a test to see if anything can be done with the negatives. I have a film scanner, and I’ve already been experimenting with scanning the negatives... The results are much better than with the scanned red positives, but still far from ideal...

As a general rule: with colour processes (negative/positive and reversal), with the exception of Kodachrome film and Cibachrome paper, all unused colour couplers remain in the emulsion after processing. These are colourless and therefore invisible, and can have unpleasant long-term effects on the dye formation. They can attack the colorants (resulting in fading) or they can still react after many years and form their colour. The Agfa CT18 from around 1969 shows the latter tendency in my experience; the magenta coupler ‘awakens’ after 40 years and increasingly covers the entire slide with a magenta cast. The home processor knows: the best method for neutralising colour couplers in the long term is still formalin.

The Agfa technical advisor on this: “The reason for this problem is that a great deal of residual chemical has remained in the images, and this then leads to the destruction of the colorants. In other words, the rinsing was poor, not vigorous enough, or too little water was used during rinsing, the water was too cold during rinsing, etc., etc....” That more or less matches what you said. I was advised to soak a print like this in lukewarm water for an hour. I haven’t tried it yet, but I intend to. It does seem almost esoteric.... Regards Wolfgang

Wolfgg

I’m pretty sure that special new machines were developed specifically for the ‘finishing’ of pocket negatives. They were no doubt designed for maximum efficiency – in other words, to use as little water as possible, including during the washing stage. Regards, Wolfgang

Wolfgg

Oh, and something else just occurred to me in this context: the colour negative film in my archive that performs the worst in terms of colour stability is called Kodacolor II. Now guess what it was originally developed for in Rochester: that’s right, those pocket-sized cameras. Regards, Wolfgang

Gast

I’ve just scanned and uploaded a particularly poor-quality photo for which I still have the negative (35mm). Unfortunately, there’s no manufacturer’s name on the film… I’ve scanned that as well. After a bit of post-processing (the image had a blue cast after scanning the negative), I removed some of the blue, and the colours now look reasonably natural. I’m curious to see what the image looks like if I have it developed at a photo lab.... [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND] [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND] And here’s one as an image (paper scan), then from the scanned film without post-processing and the same with post-processing. [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND] [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND] [ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND] Without post-processing, the image has a slight blue cast; I’ve removed some of the blue... You can really see the difference. But simply scanning the negatives isn’t a solution either; you can see the finest scratches... In other words, although the negatives already have a slight red tint, I’m hoping the photo lab can correct that....

hambo

It is true that almost only Agfa’s MCN Type 4 paper was affected. At the time, the priority was to bring the new process to market quickly, and it had to have processing times just as short as those of the new Kodak Ektaprint 2 process. Back then, Agfa’s ACN negative process still took an hour to process and could only be used in Hüger machines, whereas Kodak’s C41 process was significantly more modern and faster. Especially in a large-scale lab, time is money and increases productivity. I can’t confirm that it was only used for pocket-sized prints; usually, only one manufacturer’s products were used throughout the lab. For the Agfa paper, an extra developing machine would have been necessary, as the chemicals weren’t yet compatible with Kodak. But your problem is the red cast in the images. I’ve had the best results by scanning and editing in Photoshop. Don’t try to do it yourself; just click on ‘Auto Tone’ or ‘Colour Correction’. Usually, you then just need to adjust the brightness slightly and you’ll get a very good result. Regards, Jürgen

Wolfgg

If you don’t fancy spending a lot of money on software, why not give FixFoto a go? The built-in automatic corrections work really well (I’ve been using it myself for about 5 years): http://www.j-k-s.com/ Best regards, Wolfgang

Gast

Thank you very much for your contributions so far. I’ve got a book on Photoshop CS4, and it comes with a CD containing a 30-day trial version. The full version costs almost €1,000.