andreasdegner
Hello,
Yesterday I carried out a short test session to assess the lith printing performance of various Adox papers. I used Easy Lith in a dilution of A+B+water=1+1+40, i.e. 1+20. I enlarged a negative that is relatively low in contrast due to underdevelopment (I need a gradient of 5 for conventional enlargement).
I was disappointed with the Adox MCP: I had three test strips with normal exposure, +1 stop and +2 stops. The image formation time was quite short for the strip with the +2 stops. At some point the highlights were fully developed, but the deep density wouldn’t set in, not even after 15 minutes. Something doesn’t seem to be working there, especially as the image tone is quite close to the neutral grey of conventional development.
Question: How do you develop the MCP? What dilution, overexposure, development time?
My disappointment was, however, offset by the (almost identical) results with Adox Vario Classic PE (Easy-Print series) and Adox Fine Print Vario Classic (Baryt). By the PE variant, I mean the one with the grey label (dark red Duke light), not the blue one. The naming is a bit unfortunate. The results were exactly the same as those I’d achieved with my old Agfa MCC! The same colour tone (a pleasant, delicate beige in the highlights) and chocolate-brown blacks, with slightly sharp transitions to the mid-tones. Even the unpleasantly long development time of >20 minutes was roughly the same as with the MCC. With the 2-stop overexposure, stark contrasts emerged, which suited the subject. I’ll test soon how the paper behaves with heavy overexposure. In any case, the development times would have to be shorter then.
When I finally made a 30x40 enlargement (after the test shots, I fancied a nice picture), I had to wait a whopping 40 minutes until the image was fully developed. This was probably also down to the developer becoming exhausted and the drop in temperature in the green tray.
Conclusion: If I manage to reduce the development times, then these last two papers will become my absolute favourite lith papers!
What are your experiences with these papers for lith printing?
Best regards
Andreas
WolfgangMoersch
Hello Andreas,
The MCP doesn’t work – it’s a shame, but there’s nothing we can do about it, not even with preheating or other tricks.
The Vario Classic takes its time; at a dilution of 1:20, it shouldn’t take much longer than 10 minutes for the black to develop. With this paper, a high light exposure has no significant effect on the image colour, which is why I use stronger solutions here (1+8 to 1+10) and end up with a development time of 7–8 minutes. Because the Classic, unlike ‘warm-tone papers’, builds up sufficient silver even in the highlights, it can be toned very well (even indirectly – after bleaching). This can result in quite vivid colours, or just very subtle ones. So there’s no need to struggle with the development process – toning is done in just a few minutes.
Regards
wm
andreasdegner
Hello Andreas,
The MCP doesn’t develop – it’s a shame, but there’s nothing to be done about it, not even with preheating or other tricks.
The Vario Classic takes its time; at a dilution of 1:20, it shouldn’t take much longer than 10 minutes for the black to develop. With this paper, a high light intensity has no significant effect on the image colour, which is why I use stronger solutions here (1+8 to 1+10) and end up with a development time of 7–8 minutes. Because, unlike ‘warm-tone papers’, the Classic builds up sufficient silver even in the highlights, it can be toned very well (even indirectly – after bleaching). This can result in quite vivid colours, or just very subtle ones. So there’s no need to struggle with the development process – toning is done in just a few minutes.
Regards
wm
Hello Wolfgang,
I don’t understand why the MCP doesn’t gelatinise, given that the emulsion is supposed to be identical to the old Agfa one and the old Agfa did gelatinise...
Be that as it may, I’ll try a stronger solution for the Classic Vario... does 1+10 mean A+B+water=1+1+20?
I quite like the subdued colour. I actually use lithography mainly for the contrasts it achieves and the graphic style; I don’t necessarily need colour. I’ll test the toning behaviour (selenium) on the Vario Classic.
How can one suppress the graininess in the mid-tones? I once read that you have to adjust the mixing ratio of A and B...
Best regards
Andreas
WolfgangMoersch
Andreas,
The MCC and MCP emulations are not entirely identical. The light sensitivity of the MCC has also changed quite a few times over the years. The ‘upcoming’ MCC is certainly light-sensitive, but in a direct comparison I prefer the Adox Vario Classic.
Yes, 1+10 means A+B+water=1+1+20
The graininess in the mid-tones can be suppressed or reduced by:
1. shorter exposure times with a richer developer
2. a slight dilution of B – though this will also make the image softer
3. adding C – drop by drop – sulphite is consumed, graininess increases; too high a sulphite content prevents ‘infection’
For what you are aiming for, additive E might be the tool of choice. However, it really must only be added drop by drop! Fifteen drops correspond to roughly one millilitre, and that could already be too much for the EasyLith (due to the increased bromide content). With the ‘correct’ dosage, shadow blackening sets in earlier, accompanied by an increase in Dmax and reduced colour saturation. If you overdose, neither highlights nor mid-tones will appear before the density sets in!
Selenium toner can take time, especially when colour shift is involved; the increase in shadow density occurs relatively quickly, and the contrast rises.
andreasdegner
Andreas,
The MCC and MCP emulations are not entirely identical. The lith properties of MCC have also changed quite a few times over the years. The ‘upcoming’ MCC is lith, but in a direct comparison I prefer the ADOX Vario Classic.
Yes, 1+10 means A+B+water=1+1+20
The sharpness in the mid-tones can be suppressed or reduced by:
1. shorter exposure times with a richer developer
2. slightly lighter development from B – though this will also make the image softer
3. adding C – drop by drop – sulphite is consumed, sharpness increases; too high a sulphite content prevents ‘infection’
For what you are aiming for, additive E might be the tool of choice. However, it really must only be added drop by drop! Fifteen drops correspond to roughly one millilitre, and that could already be too much for the EasyLith (due to the increased bromide content). With the ‘correct’ dosage, shadow blackening sets in earlier, accompanied by an increase in Dmax and reduced colour saturation. If you overdose, neither highlights nor mid-tones will appear before the density sets in!
Selenium toner can take time, especially when colour shift is involved; the increase in shadow density occurs relatively quickly, and the contrast rises.
Hello Wolfgang,
thanks for the informative reply; I’ll give Additive E a try.
I’ve just had a look at the FOTOIMPEX website... The Vario Classic PE is on offer at a special price while stocks last. Does that mean production has been discontinued?
And have you tried the other EasyPrint variant with Lith?
Regards
Andreas
WolfgangMoersch
>The Vario Classic PE is on offer at a special price while stocks last. Does that mean production has been discontinued?
I can’t really imagine that, but if I were in Mirko’s shoes, I’d certainly consider it, because the MCP is simply unbeatable in terms of quality. I’ve no idea what proportion of turnover PE lith prints account for, but stocking this paper solely for that purpose certainly doesn’t make sense. I don’t worry about price differences – I don’t even know if there are any, as PE isn’t really my area of expertise – but having three PE options in the range is a luxury in itself.
>And have you ever tried the other EasyPrint variant with lith?
You don’t need to try that – it won’t work.
Prompted by your question, I made a few Lithprints on Classic Baryt today.
You can only achieve a grain-free result with ‘C’ – 5ml to a maximum of 10ml per litre, although the Lith effect is somewhat reduced.
Without the additive, I end up with 5–7 minutes (1+10).
With the same exposure time and the addition of “E” (diluted 1+4 – 8 drops to 1 litre of Easy Lith), the development time is only slightly extended. The contrast increases, but so does the graininess! Grain-free mid-tones and increased contrast are only possible with a two-bath process!
A sample image will follow tomorrow.
Regards
wm
WolfgangMoersch
Here is the sample image I mentioned
[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]
This is a commissioned piece. The negative is quite light (logD 0.70) and therefore difficult to lith print. On the one hand, colour is desired (= plenty of light); on the other hand, the predominantly dark tonal ranges should not completely merge. The client is completely unconcerned about the quality. This print was made solely to explore the possibility of achieving relatively fine grain in the highlights whilst simultaneously maximising shadow attenuation. With a single-bath lith from such a delicate negative, you cannot have both, so two different developers are required.
First developer: 50+50+1000 (A+B+water in ml) +20ml D (not required for EasyLith, as the corresponding proportion of bromide is already present) +5ml C
Second developer: 50+50+1000 + 5ml D + 8 drops E (diluted 1+4)
With a longer dwell time in the first developer, the image develops slowly, with fine grain, soft tones and colour.
Used on its own, the second developer would produce a coarse-grained, relatively colourless and high-contrast image within a few minutes.
The desired image impression can be achieved by varying the development time in the two solutions, which have different effects. Excessive overexposure should be avoided if the shadows are to retain some degree of detail. If the exposure time is too short, no colour will develop.
Development times:
left: 3+4 minutes without toning
right: 4+3 minutes with MT4 Siena toning (1+40) for 30 seconds
andreasdegner
Here is the sample image I mentioned
[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]
This is a commissioned piece. The negative is quite thin (logD 0.70) and therefore difficult to lith print. On the one hand, colour is desired (= plenty of light); on the other hand, the predominantly dark tonal ranges should not completely merge. The client is completely unconcerned about the quality. This print was made solely to explore the possibility of achieving relatively fine grain in the highlights whilst simultaneously maximising shadow attenuation. With a single-bath lith from such a delicate negative, you cannot have both, so two different developers are required.
First developer: 50+50+1000 (A+B+water in ml) +20ml D (not required for EasyLith, as the appropriate proportion of bromide is already present) +5ml C
Second developer: 50+50+1000 + 5ml D + 8 drops E (diluted 1+4)
With a longer dwell time in the first developer, the image develops slowly, with a fine grain, soft tones and colour.
Used on its own, the second developer would produce a coarse-grained, relatively colourless and high-contrast image within a few minutes.
The desired image impression can be achieved by adjusting the development time in the two solutions, which have different effects. Excessive overexposure should be avoided if the shadows are to retain some degree of detail. If the exposure time is too short, no colour can be developed.
Development times:
left: 3+4 minutes without toning
right: 4+3 minutes with MT4 Siena toning 1+40 for 30 seconds
Hello Wolfgang,
I tried the 1+10 dilution yesterday. With Vario Classic PE, I end up with an overexposure of 2–3 stops and a development time of 8–10 minutes (20°C). However, I had massive problems with grain in the highlights. According to the EasyLith data sheet, this is supposed to be a problem caused by an exhausted developer, but such a strong batch shouldn’t be exhausted after just two 24x30 prints...
Does Adox Fineprint Baryt cause similar problems, or do you add an additive when mixing the developer?
Then another observation regarding toning: I carried out an indirect sulphur toning process with these lith prints. I get the impression that the highlights (which were bleached out in the Bleach bath) do not fully reappear in the toner. Is this specific to Adox VC?
Perhaps I also toned for too short a time, although I waited until nothing more was happening... Should one refix in this case, as there are actually still excess silver halides in the emulsion?
That’s it for now...
Best regards
Andreas
WolfgangMoersch
Hello Andreas,
PE reacts differently to baryta in the lith process; I don’t know why that is. As with any other bromide silver paper, you can expect granularity to become visible from a medium density onwards. If the highlights are blown out, the light exposure is too high. If you reduce the light exposure, the development time increases – so you end up going round in circles. Presumably, the EasyLith is too slow for this paper; with a fixed formulation, you can’t do justice to every type of paper. You could try adjusting the Küng mixture ratio. Instead of 50+50+1000, try something like 35+70+1000; the developer will then require considerably less light, yet still build up the highlights due to the higher alkalinity. With an excess of B solution, the sulphite content is also higher; sulphite, too, prevents grain formation.
The only truly convincing liths on PE that are also completely trouble-free to process are the late Polywarmton and Fomatone, though these are likely too colourful for your taste. However, it takes little effort to tone down the colour in Fomatone. Instead of struggling any longer with the tricky bromide-silver emulsions, a switch would be worth considering. Even for me, the bromide papers don’t always work the way I want them to. Sometimes it works straight away, sometimes not at all. That’s why I only use them when I’m in the right frame of mind – and want grain.
andreasdegner
Hi Wolfgang,
I really do mean the ‘peppercorn’ effect... that is, small black dots appearing randomly, even where the paper should be white. Is there an additive I can use for this (instead of changing the mixing ratio – though I’ll try that too)? And is the peppercorn effect linked to the rich developer solution? With the print that was in a 1+20 solution for 40 minutes, I only had one or two small dots in the highlights, which you could still spot-clean with Farmer if necessary. With my 1+10 solution, I had roughly 30 of those little dots...
Regarding my problem with sulphur toning and the highlights not fully returning – is there anything specific to bear in mind with the indirect method (using a Bleach bath), particularly for lith prints?
Best regards
Andreas
WolfgangMoersch
Hello Andreas,
The random black dots can appear even at the unexposed edges of the image. This phenomenon occurs exclusively with bromide-silver papers when using a fresh batch of developer. With mixed emulsions containing a higher proportion of bromide silver, this only occurs (in areas of exposure) if the developer has been in use for some time (after more than 10–20 prints) and therefore contains a critical amount of semichinone (for such papers). Unlike the black dots, this is referred to as ‘peppercorn’. Both effects can be counteracted by adding sulphite (Lith C) to the developer. If this is done right from the start, i.e. with a fresh batch (in excessive quantities), the lith quality is also reduced (= no deep blacks).
Some bromide-silver papers (e.g. Fomabrom, Slavich Unibrom) lith print like the devil – trashy, brilliant. Some users like it that way, others do not. Grain, in whatever form, can be reduced in lith development by adding sulphite.
Compared to the Master variant, EasyLith contains both more (retarding) bromide and more sulphite, making it a catch-all compromise. Adding sulphite (or Lith C) to a fresh batch, or as a ‘replenisher’ when needed, influences the grain structure and the maximum black density.
Indirect toning of lith prints
If lith prints are toned after bleaching, in the best-case scenario (with bromide silver papers) the same, or approximately the same, highlight density can be restored. The highlight density is composed of silver density + colorant (oxidation product). If the metallic silver is converted into a (tonable) silver salt during bleaching, the secondary density (colorant) will disappear forever. Therefore, the toned print may appear less dense in the highlights (depending on the emulsion).
andreasdegner
Hello Wolfgang,
I’ve got a few more questions. First of all, the ADOX Fineprint looks great at a 1:10 dilution, with no black dots. The colour in the highlights was a light ochre yellow, whereas at a 1:20 dilution there was a slight green tinge.
Yesterday I prepared about 400 ml of developer at 1+10. The first two prints (24x30) were fine: no overly coarse grain even with high contrast. The next two then started to crumble at the transitions to the mid-tones.
From which print onwards, and with what quantity of fresh working solution, should one regenerate? Is the addition of sulphite necessary here? And why does the concentrated solution run out so quickly? The solution had only been standing for a maximum of 2–3 hours and was pale yellow when I poured it back into a bottle.
I would have liked consistent results similar to the first two prints.
Is Master Lith perhaps better suited to this paper?
Best regards
Andreas
WolfgangMoersch
Hello Andreas,
Master Lith allows for a more flexible approach. However, to make the most of it, you need to understand what’s going on. The rich solution doesn’t get used up, but its effect changes. With Easy Lith, the concentration of bromide—which acts as a brake—is already quite high, and with each development cycle the amount of bromide increases, resulting in progressively longer development times for the same amount of light. With longer development times, larger grains also form in the mid-tones, which then appear as grain. Strictly speaking, the developer is only now truly ready for the Lith process, but if results similar to those of a fresh batch are desired, you have to approach the matter differently.
With SE5, regeneration is more effective because the base solution contains less bromide. You prepare a solution, set aside a portion for regeneration, and either add no bromide at all (Lith D) to the working solution, or only as much as is absolutely necessary, or you ‘inoculate’ the fresh developer with old, used solution. As soon as development times start to lengthen, regeneration is carried out by adding a dash of unused solution. If this is not sufficient, sulphite (Lith C) can be added in small quantities (drop by drop). Too much sulphite prevents proper density. To ensure results that are as consistent as possible, the balance between sulphite and bromide must be correct. Sulphite is consumed, whilst the bromide content increases.
Regards
wm
andreasdegner
Hello Andreas,
Master Lith allows for a more flexible approach. However, to make the most of it, you need to understand what’s going on. The rich solution doesn’t get used up, but its effect changes. With Easy Lith, the concentration of bromide—which acts as a brake—is already quite high, and with each development cycle the amount of bromide increases, resulting in progressively longer development times for the same amount of light. With longer development times, larger grains also form in the mid-tones, which then appear as grains. Strictly speaking, the developer is only now truly ready for the Lith process, but if results similar to those of a fresh batch are desired, you have to approach the matter differently.
With SE5, regeneration is more effective because the base solution contains less bromide. You prepare a solution, set aside a portion for regeneration, and either add no bromide at all (Lith D) to the working solution, or only as much as is absolutely necessary, or you ‘inoculate’ the fresh developer with old, used solution. As soon as development times start to lengthen, regeneration is carried out by adding a dash of unused solution. If that is not sufficient, sulphite (Lith C) can be added in small quantities (drop by drop). Too much sulphite prevents proper density. To ensure results that are as consistent as possible, the balance between sulphite and bromide must be correct. Sulphite is consumed, whilst the bromide content increases.
Regards
wm
Hello Wolfgang!
I bought the SE5 Master Lith from FOTOIMPEX, but I’m missing the paper/developer combination table, which should actually be included. Is this available as a PDF somewhere, or could you send it to me?
Best regards
Andreas
