Fomabrom sticks, Fomatone does not...

HenningH · 2008-07-27T12:20:17+00:00

Hallo, habe gestern mit der Baryt-Verarbeitung angefangen. Es klappt alles recht gut. Fomatone 131 löst sich auch wunderbar gegen das Tuch trocknen und wird...

HenningH

Hello, I started baryta paper processing yesterday. Everything is going quite well. Fomatone 131 dries beautifully against the cloth and becomes largely flat. Fomabrom 111, on the other hand (emulsion number 013648/12), sticks extremely firmly to the cloth and can only be peeled off with a fair amount of lint. The problem occurred at different temperatures and with different drying times (new Bächer press). Is this a sign that the emulsion is still too fresh? Can this be prevented with a hardener (would a 10% alum solution suffice)? Or should the paper be left to dry for longer beforehand? The pre-drying time was approx. 15–30 mins. Best regards Henning

cfb_de

Hello Henning, That would suggest that the Fomabrom emulsion is not very stable. The stability of the emulsion normally has an effect from the outset (I make this qualification deliberately, because sometimes even slight changes in the emulsion can have a greater impact than one might think). In other words, it is independent of the paper’s digestion after gusseting. A heat-setting bath should remedy the situation; I suggest another possible solution further down. First of all, I would like to encourage Mirko to launch a heat fixer under the ADOX label (or a heat additive for fixers, which should be easier to sell). A possible name for this could be, for example, ‘Adorock’ (rock: (English) rock). The pun in German is intentional. I don’t think much of developer guards; based on my experiments with them, their influence on development kinetics, image tone and other factors is, in my view, far too great. My baryta process using a dry press is as follows: strip the paper, place it on the press whilst still wet, put the lid on, switch it on. When the press is just over “lukewarm” (just below the pain threshold, for me approx. 60°C), switch it off. Leave to cool. Repeat the process two or three times until it no longer “smells damp” above the press. Remove the print without wavy edges, place it under three books overnight (two cookery books and “Alles Wahrheit! Alles Lüge!”, exhibition catalogue from the Kün City Museums) overnight; the next afternoon, remove perfectly flat baryta prints. However, I am one of those who place greater value on a certain base content of gelatin in the drying cloth. Which brings us to the second point: my solution. Every print sticks to clean drying cloths. That’s why these things are rarely washed (after all, you rinse the gunk out of the paper beforehand) and if they are, they’re at least starched afterwards before ironing, or better still treated with a diluted gelatine solution. For this, I use my old, shabby flat iron—unsuitable for steam ironing—with a faulty thermostat. If you want to starch them: you do it just like in the old days, in the washing machine with ordinary potato starch. Afterwards, run the washing machine twice without any laundry, using washing powder, and the starch is out. If the gelatine solution is your method of choice: that’s better, but it’s a right mess in the saucepan or on the press. I first boiled my new dry cloth (rep weave, 120-count linen) (in the washing machine; with modern eco-machines, it’s better to do this in a saucepan on the hob, as this eco-rubbish only manages just over 80°C in the drum) and ironed it. Flattening it afterwards is hard work and cannot be replaced by a mangle. Two-dimensional ironing is the way to go, otherwise the cloth will crease on the press afterwards. The iron must be moved in a circular motion. I then sewed it diagonally to the grain (sewed it just a tad too tight – yes, thanks to my schooling in Lower Saxony back then, I can handle a sewing machine) and stretched it wet onto the press. Press on, and afterwards it was just right – I suppose that’s what the tension springs are for... I then treated the stretched fabric to the gelatin mess under the expert supervision of my soon-to-be 90-year-old uncle. Afterwards, the fabric looked a bit grubby, but it worked a treat and was guaranteed to contain no dirt from the photographic process. And that’s all that matters. Not everything that looks ‘Persil-white’, feels fluffy and smells nice is actually suitable for its intended purpose. It’s like the difference between a frying pan at home and one in a restaurant. At home, it has a Teflon coating (not mine), and in a restaurant (mine too), a forged steel pan is used, which is simply rubbed with oil and salt to clean. "Housewife Erna E." (to borrow an example from the social literature of the 1970s) feels nauseous at the sight of the restaurant pan. Nevertheless, the steak from the restaurant pan tastes better and cooks better. Best regards, Franz

HenningH

Hi Franz, First of all, thanks for the detailed reply. My press has a thermostat, and the results were similar at 60° and 80°. The cloth is really very new; it was used for the first prints yesterday. Perhaps things will change a bit over time. I just found it striking that of the first two prints (one 18x24 Fomatone and one 18x24 Fomabrom), one remained completely flat whilst the other stuck quite firmly to the cloth. Interestingly, old Tura paper (estimated late 60s) also stuck to the cloth; its emulsion must surely be well and truly mature by now... I had thought of using an alum solution as a stop bath after the first washing, as I suspect that otherwise the fixer is harder to wash out. Just an idea... As I said, the cloths are brand new (the Bächer company is based about 10 km from here); what does this gelatin treatment involve? Best regards Henning

cfb_de

Hi Henning, I actually thought I’d described the mess in sufficient detail. - Prepare a gelatin solution at around 60°C. - Rub this solution onto the cloth, wiping away any drips. On both sides. - Close the press (please without the glossy film, as that would be ruined for good), switch it on and temper at a maximum temperature of < 110°C until dry. (It might need to be higher; my feeble Büscher can’t manage any more.) Clean the press (the plate, not the cloth!). Then repeat the process once more. The cloth will look a right mess afterwards, but it’ll do the job. If necessary, rub the inside a few times with a dry sponge. 10 km from where you live, they’ll naturally tell you something completely different. I wonder why? I’ve been working with Büscher presses for years, which date back to my father’s youth. They’re simply too good :-) Not like those ‘white’ household appliances, where at some point the manufacturer’s survival took precedence over the durability of the appliances they produced. Best regards, Franz

HenningH

Hi Franz, Since you mentioned your uncle’s supervision, I thought some sort of secret ceremony was required to create the right consistency... So, just like with Bavarian cream: soak the gelatin and then dissolve it over a low heat. I’ll give that a go when I get the chance. (I can easily get hold of a replacement...) Best regards, Henning

Kryschtof

Hi Franz, Where did you get the fabric for the drying cloth? I showed my old cloth to a sales assistant in a fabric shop, and she said it was cotton (nettle?), not linen. But she didn’t have anything like that in stock and couldn’t order it either. Best wishes Christof

Kryschtof

Hi Henning, I’ve found that the paper sticks to the press sometimes more and sometimes less, even when using the same type of paper. I suspect it’s down to the temperature and/or how dry the paper is. In my (limited) experience so far, the print on the bottom layer of a double-sided press takes a bit longer, which is why I sometimes flip the press over halfway through. I try to take the prints out in good time, before the wheels start to warp. The lint hasn’t bothered me much so far, as you can wipe it off afterwards with a soft cloth (carefully, otherwise you’ll get scratches). I must say, though, that I bought the press second-hand and the cloths are a bit grubby. I still need to make some new ones... Best regards Christof

HenningH

Hi Franz, Yesterday I finally got round to giving this "mess" a go. I soaked 12 sheets of gelatin in 1/2 litre of cold water for 5 minutes, dissolved them over a medium heat whilst stirring, spread the mixture onto the cloth, dried it at around 80°C, repeated the process, and put the first 18x24 print in at 60°C. After 7 minutes (works quite well with Fomatone), I opened the press and... Well... The gelatine in the paper and that in the cloth seem to be very similar and are therefore very keen to fuse together. It had essentially formed a block of gelatine that ran from the baryta paper right through the cloth... So it remains a tricky business. :unsure: On the plus side, I managed to produce a virtually speck-free high-gloss finish ‘in a jiffy’ with this press. :rolleyes: Doesn’t anyone else here dry Fomabrom against the cloth? Swinging regards Henning

orwograph

Doesn't anyone else here apply Fomabrom to the paper?

Yep, I tried it once, but never again. Fomabrom variant. It stuck like mad. It really is down to the Fomabrom, not the lab technician. The ADOX Test-MCC stuck too, by the way, though not quite as badly as the Fomabrom. The good old Orwo works best. Nothing sticks; the prints just fall off the screen. That’s how you’d want it with any paper. Peter.

bernhardmangelsgmxde

Just to set the record straight about Fomabrom: I haven’t had any problems at all with the matt Fomabrom (112) (as far as sticking is concerned). Using a GDR press and a washed cloth. It’s just… matt.

MirkoBoeddecker

Peter, Old ORWO can’t stick at all anymore. After 20 years, any gelatin has hardened. We also pointed this out in the ADOX test. For specific reasons, the paper hasn’t been fully coated yet – we only do that on the large machine. As for the Fomabrom Variant, I must say in Foma’s defence that the Foma data sheet states that the paper should be dried on drying screens. I will raise this point again at my next meeting with Foma. Best regards, Mirko

orwograph

Mirko, I wasn’t trying to question anything here; I was simply describing my experience. In principle, I was extremely pleased with the MCC. To be fair, I must also say that, apart from completely over-exposed Agfa and Orwo baryta, I only used the two new baryta papers, Foma and ADOX, so the reason for the fuzziness may well lie in the ‘novelty’ of the papers.

HenningH

Hello Mirko, The data sheet states

Drying: Photographs made using papers with both matt and glossy surfaces are recommended to be dried after washing, ideally by pinning them down.

I must admit that even after poring over dictionaries, I still don’t understand this sentence... It would be great if the drying behaviour improved in later batches (Emulsion IV???) However, I’m also currently quite taken with the Fine Print Vario Classic, which dries quite easily... Good night Henning

MirkoBoeddecker

Henning, The Fomabrom Variant data sheet should state: FOMABROM VARIANT III is recommended to be dried in a loose layer at room temperature, or alternatively using hot air at a maximum temperature of 85°C, and subsequently pressed or stretch-dried at a maximum temperature of 35°C. Here is the link to the current data sheet: Fomabrom data sheet Best regards, Mirko

HenningH

Hi Mirko, The sentence quoted above – which I still don’t understand – can be found in the data sheet available for download on the foma.cz website. You’re more up to date there... Best regards, Henning PS: Is there a setting somewhere that shows the entire thread rather than just individual posts?