bernhardmangelsgmxde
Hello,
I recently bought an A-P tank (I wasn’t 100% satisfied with the Jobo). The A-P tank comes with a rod that you can use to turn the spiral. I’d be interested to know: can I simply leave the tank on the table during development and use this rod to rotate the spiral occasionally (10 seconds every 30 seconds or so), instead of tilting it? That would be quite neat – the lid wouldn’t need to be put on at all, and it wouldn’t spill either...
And: for some reason, the thing is included. (Or is there a machine from A-P that this only works with?)
My questions: is the developer distributed evenly, or should I worry that some areas will be developed more and others less? Will the development time be longer or shorter? Is there anything else that could go wrong with this method?
Many thanks for your opinions!
Regards
Bernhard
CPD
Hello Bernhard,
Can I simply leave the tank on the table during development using this rod and rotate the spiral occasionally (10 seconds every 30 seconds or so?), instead of tilting it?
Yes, you can! However, there is a high risk of streaking on the negatives. In the past, films were often developed using the so-called ‘rotation method’ – with the disadvantage described above. Some developers seem to have been notorious for causing streaking.
How rather elegant – the lid wouldn’t need to be put on at all, and so it wouldn’t drip either...
I’ve got a more elegant solution :) ! If you’re developing in the dark anyway, take the spiral insert out at a rhythm you’ve tested, let it drip for a few seconds, and then put it back in the can.
Or you could get hold of a large bowl – I saw one recently in a garden centre – and roll your can – in room light! – gently back and forth. You should have the lid on, though
(not 100% satisfied with Jobo).
I’ve heard this several times now – a simple household bowl, into which you can also pour a water bath, doesn’t stop the dripping, but you won’t mind it then.
Best regards, CP
GeorgK
Hello.
The torsion bar is only intended for the fixing stage, not for development. Even then, I’d find it too risky.
Best regards,
Georg
bernhardmangelsgmxde
Thanks for the replies!
I would have been surprised if there hadn’t been a catch somewhere... so I’ll just keep pouring it in and put up with the occasional spill (I still need to find out how dense the A-P tank is...)
Bernhard
CPD
Hi Bernhard,
Apparently, you can make the Jobo cans seal (better) by rubbing a very thin layer of Vaseline onto the leaky spots. I haven’t tried it yet – the dripping doesn’t bother me that much! – Perhaps also because I was still using those ancient Jobo cans with screw-on lids until not too long ago: they really did make a right mess.
Otherwise, once again: place your tin in a rectangular household bowl (or something similar) and the problem is basically solved. The tilting method does have its advantages, although I now almost exclusively use a processor.
Best regards, CP
hunnch
No.
Essentially, the emulsion must be evenly bathed in the active chemical solution. The chemical is consumed in the process, so you need to ensure it is both removed and replenished. And this must be done uniformly across all parts of the image. (Streaking)
Tilting ensures that the solution is mixed evenly once again. The same applies to rotary development, but here gravity plays a key role in ensuring the solution is well mixed. And in this case, it does matter whether the axis of rotation lies on a horizontal or vertical plane. The liquid level would also need to be much higher, and this too affects the mixing.
Allow me to draw a comparison with a simple washing machine. There, the drum also rotates only horizontally,
at least in the models I have seen so far. A vertical arrangement of the drum would probably not lead to a better result, but rather function less effectively.
I only gave the rotary rod a couple of sharp turns after pouring in the chemicals, to remove the large air bubbles from the ‘dry’ film (surface tension). Lid on. Afterwards, a firm tap after tilting is enough to remove any air bubbles. It’s not Meissen porcelain at the mother-in-law’s tea party, but more like a ‘Mass’ at the Oktoberfest.....
Regards
Hermann
bernhardmangelsgmxde
Keys: When I use a water bath for my keys, the chemicals drip onto them... What exactly is the benefit? Whether I’m cleaning the lab bench or the keys... and I still end up with the stuff on my fingers anyway. Or am I missing something here (the water bath itself would be good for maintaining the temperature)
Rotating: I used to rotate for ages too (with an old CPE), and actually found it quite good. Except that I had to clean the whole unit, including the roller stand, every time because the fixer dripped out (it usually stayed sealed with the developer). But then I sold it off; as an amateur, I don’t develop that often. It’s nice to be able to have a cup of coffee whilst conducting development, but having that massive thing standing around... (I don’t have that much space)
Although no one here has shared any positive experiences with the method so far, I’ve given it another think over. I think I’ll give it a go: (yes, I’m a bit stubborn)
Here’s my line of thinking:
Develop as with the tilting method, except that I don’t tilt but rotate. So, ‘Ilford tilt’ – move for 10 seconds,
(place the can down as instructed) leave to stand for 50 seconds. Then the development process takes place in 5/6 of the time, just as if I were tilting. Provided, that is, that the rotating motion mixes everything just as thoroughly as the tilting motion.
And actually, everything should be mixed properly if I rotate it for 10 seconds.
If I get the direction right, the spiral should actually transport the water from the outer area to the inner area (I haven’t yet thought about what happens in the middle). Let’s call this the ‘screw effect’. I’ll just assume for now that the developer is sufficiently mixed in this way, and that there is a comparable amount of fresh developer throughout the can. Now the whole thing stands still again for 50 seconds
This raises the following questions:
- How significant are the 10 seconds of movement compared to the 50 seconds of standing still? Development certainly proceeds faster during the moving phase, but it all stands still for much longer. If I forget to move the developing tray whilst enlarging, the image continues to develop anyway... just a bit slower
- How uneven is the development during the agitation phase? Perhaps the streaks are caused by excessive rotation or rotation ‘in the wrong direction’. After all, there’s only a screw effect in one direction.
In short: I have something like ‘the theory of the screw effect during agitation development, which leads to a proper mixing of the developer’ in mind. I could also imagine that certain irregularities during the moving phase might be compensated for by the longer stationary phase, or rather: I assume that the long period of uniform development is decisive, and that the relatively short period of presumably not entirely uniform development has only a marginal influence on the overall result.
In my theory, it’s working perfectly... and I have lovely, evenly developed negatives ;) But I must bear in mind that I’m doing quite a lot of ‘thinking’ and ‘assuming’ here... luckily, I still have two rolls of film lying around that I exposed almost a year ago but haven’t developed yet... good material to try this out on!
I’ll let you know how it turns out...
Regards, Bernhard
CPD
Hello
Although no one here has reported any positive experiences with this method so far, I’ve given it some more thought. I think I’ll give it a go
Go for it!
Best regards, CP
orwograph
Well then. As a member of Russian photography forums and as someone who got into ‘home developing’ in Russia using the local (black-and-white) products, I can tell you that Soviet developing spools were never tipped over, but were—and still are—always just turned. Reason: these things don’t have a watertight lid (or rather, Jobo & co. don’t either, but unlike them, the Russian ones don’t claim to have one either ;)... They’re basically Bakelite pots with a spindle sticking out of the top of the lid, and that’s what you turn. And everyone who works with classic Russian equipment simply turns it and doesn’t shake it.
It’s worth noting that the classic Russian photographer doesn’t work with x different developers either, but only with one (!) standard developer. In Russia, this film developer is called ‘Standard-2’ (‘Standard-1’ is used for paper and was originally intended for glass plates), whilst in the West (for mixing yourself, for fanatics like me) it’s known as Agfa/Ansco-12, or in the Eastern Bloc as Orwo-12 (recipe here:
http://digitaltruth.com/techdata/agfa_ansco_12.php).
At least with this developer, I never had any streaks. Basically a reasonably fine-grained, decent product.
I always thought streaking (during stand development with a few tilts, by the way) was just a myth, until I was proven wrong with Rodinal 1+100 at 30–45 mins (KB). I don’t do that anymore. Although it also depends on the film.
With that in mind.
Peter.
CPD
Hello,
Back in the school photo lab – though that was about 35 years ago now – we had an Agfa daylight developing tank where you actually had to turn the film. Despite my teacher’s warning, I quickly fell in love with the thing, as our darkroom was only really dark in the evenings and at night... However, I also turned my back on it very quickly. With Neofin, my preferred developer at the time, there were some absolutely dreadful streaks.
I do assume, though, that there are developers that work well with such equipment; otherwise, they wouldn’t have been the de facto standard for decades – but I’ve little desire to go and find out which ones they are. Besides, my Jobos don’t drool so much that I need to worry about it...
Best regards, CP
bernhardmangelsgmxde
The two rolls of film I exposed last year, and which for some reason I still haven’t developed… are still undeveloped…
Instead, I got it spot on straight away in my attempt and (without realising it… creative chaos…) ended up developing a roll of film that I hadn’t actually intended to use as experimental material. One APX looks just like the next…. It’s still hanging bare in the bathroom; at first glance, no streaks or anything like that are visible. I’ll have a critical look at it tomorrow...
bernhardmangelsgmxde
Even on closer inspection, I couldn’t spot any streaks.
For reference: APX 400, with an exposure of 26 DIN? R09 1+20 at 18°C
Developed for 12 minutes. Agitated for the first 20 seconds, and then for the first 10 seconds of each minute. Rotated relatively quickly and changed the direction of rotation. ‘Set down’ on the table once after each rotation phase.
I must say that developing this way is very pleasant. No chemicals dripping out… no matter how leaky the lid is (when rinsing, I tilted it with the lid on. It didn’t feel any leaker than the Jobo one…)
I can’t say exactly how this affects the development time, as I’ve changed several parameters; I assume you need to develop for longer than when tilting at the same rate.
I got ‘good’ negatives with the Agfa tilt method on DIN 27 at 10 1/2 at 19°C.
I extended the time because 1. it was cooler, and 2. I agitated at one-minute intervals instead of the Agfa 30-second rhythm.
I based this on photos developed on DIN 27 (...)
on DIN 26, the negatives “look quite good” at first glance, but I don’t think I can spot a one-third stop difference that easily...
I’ll compare it with a film developed using the tilting method...
I’d say: you don’t necessarily need to write off “rotary development”. It can work quite well too. But it’s good to know that, depending on the developer-film combination, it can also go pear-shaped...
I’ll enlarge a few pictures; if they’re OK too (I can’t really tell from the contact sheet), I’ll make this my standard method. I probably won’t use the Jobo tank anymore, if only because the A-P reels are much quicker and less fussy to load...
Thanks again for all the experiences and advice from everyone! It helps immensely to know what to expect in advance, rather than having to figure it all out for yourself
Best regards
Bernhard
PS: Just one developer in the Soviet Union – I don’t think that stopped many photographers there from taking very beautiful photos anyway...
bernhardmangelsgmxde
The enlargements look pretty good too. I could probably use this film-developer combination for tilting as well...
I once tried tilting a film with the canister... I probably won’t be doing that again... As far as I’m concerned, the JOBO canister has been vindicated as a quality product... I added a bit more water twice, just to be on the safe side... to make sure the whole film gets developed... well, anyway.
