mowbray
Hello everyone!
I’m looking to get into medium format photography for the first time and would like to ask for your advice.
I’ve read various articles on this forum and elsewhere about affordable cameras like the Kiev, but as a newcomer I’m still wondering which camera is right for my needs.
Here are the key details:
- I don’t need to make any money from the camera or the photos; it’s purely a hobby
- I’m not a tinkerer who can or wants to fix any mechanical damage myself
- I’d like to be able to use interchangeable lenses
- I mainly want to shoot slide film outdoors (no studio)
- I have my own external light meter
- I want to buy affordable entry-level equipment
- Actually, I prefer 6x6 to 4.5x6....
The cameras I’ve had my eye on so far are:
- The Kiev 88
- The Kiev 60
- Pentacon Six TL
- Mamiya 645 1000S
Taking the above points into account – what would you recommend and why? Are there any other cameras I should consider?
I’ve actually read enough about the Kievs; a comparison or review of the Pentacon Six TL and Mamiya 645 would be almost more interesting...
Thanks in advance for your replies!
I’m grateful for any tips,
Best regards,
Martin
cfb_de
Hi Martin,
You’ve pretty much asked the million-dollar question :-) So there’ll probably be at least ten answers and eleven different opinions.
I’ll start.
The fundamental difference between 35mm and medium format isn’t just the size of the negative. No, with medium format, you shoot in a completely different way: considerably slower, usually without a zoom, and with fewer lens changes. And mostly with manual exposure without any automatic functions. Almost always with a heavy tripod if it’s a system camera (as 2kg is almost impossible to hold handheld).
So here’s my tip: try it out first to see if it suits you. You don’t need a complete system for this; a Rolleicord or a (good) folding camera will do, such as one with a Radionar/Solinar/Tessar/Xenar (the viewfinders on folding cameras are pretty much always rubbish). You can sell both again after your trial period without any financial loss.
If you then like MF, you can always look around for a system camera. Since you don’t want to tinker with it, the Pentacon Six and the Kiev range are out of the question (although I wouldn’t dream of criticising my Kiev-60!).
I don’t know how big your budget is, but in principle, reasonably well-preserved 500C/M models are now affordable. Depending on your budget, the question of interchangeable lenses then becomes quite straightforward :-)
Just a quick note: I’ve got pretty much everything from 50–250mm for my Kiev. The ones I really need are the 65mm and the 180mm. The rest usually stay at home.
Best regards,
Franz
ravebenni
Hi Martin,
I’ve just read Franz’s reply. Basically, I have to agree with him. 35mm and medium-format photography are two completely different things.
Nevertheless, I’d like to share what I know about my KIEV 6C.
I bought it as an inexperienced amateur photographer, shortly after I learnt about the existence of medium format. It is essentially a fully mechanical SLR camera, just with 6x6 negatives. Originally, I wanted to try my hand at astrophotography with it, because of the larger negatives, but that never came to anything. At the moment, it’s just sitting around because it’s simply too heavy for casual snaps. An external light meter is essential for this camera. The one in the prism is complete rubbish unless it’s professionally converted to run on mercury-free batteries. The light well with focusing screen, sports viewfinder and mirror viewfinder is brilliant. It’s impressive looking at the large focusing screen for the first time. Of course, it’s prone to faults and likes to be treated with kid gloves. If you do that, it doesn’t give you any trouble. The original lenses aren’t of high quality, though. Often the aperture stays closed and won’t open again.
As you can see, I’m writing about the camera with a bit of emotion. That’s because that’s how I take photos too. I’m really just trying to capture things that look interesting on film.
So you’ll have to make up your own mind; I can only tell you what I like about my KIEV.
P.S. I’ll definitely never part with it because I have a lovely PENTACON 300mm fixed focal length lens for it, but I always use it with a 35mm camera. (with the camera weighing 4.5 kg :( )
cfb_de
Hi Benjamin,
The one in the Prisma is complete rubbish unless you have it professionally converted to run on mercury-free batteries.
That only applies to the ancient prism viewfinder. Mine has a bridge circuit and works with any power source from around 3.5V.
Nevertheless, Martin’s pleasant chat about the Kiev isn’t helping at all. He should first get to grips with *what* medium format actually means. After that, he can choose the camera that suits him best.
If I’d approached that decision so rigorously back then, I wouldn’t have a Kiev-60. I’d still have my Franka Solida-III and the twin-lens camera.
A brief note on my MF journey: Inherited the Franka. Loaded film, had that certain ‘experience’. Bought a Yashica-D. Even better. Absolutely had to have (because I didn’t seek advice...) an SLR system: checked my bank balance, bought a Kiev-60. Nice little camera, mine even works perfectly.
Well. Most of the time, though, I take photos with the twin-lens (depending on the purpose, with a Triotar, Xenar or incomparable Tessar; almost never with the Yashinon anymore) and the Kiev stays at home. When the Kiev goes out, the 65mm and 180mm lenses come along. The remaining five kilos (and with that approx. DM350, so now almost
Wolf_XL
"- I'm not the type who can or wants to fix any mechanical quirks myself"
...well, that really leaves only the Mamiya 645... Finding a fault-free Kiev or P'Six on eBay would be like winning the lottery... If it's a Kiev or P'Six, then only one that you can test out for yourself.
That leaves the Mamiya 645. I’d recommend the 645 Super or 645 Pro. The price difference compared to the 645 models, which are now over twenty years old, is too small to make it worth, for example, doing without the option of interchangeable magazines. The catch with the 645 is simply the format – personally, I’ve never been entirely happy with it. The difference from 35mm is just too small for me – for me, medium format with 6x6 adds...
What else is there? Folding cameras are frequently brought up. You can take photos with them – it’s even fun – but these things can at best be described as a teaser. For one thing, most Falter cameras have a rather dim viewfinder, and for another, their mostly three-element lenses quickly reach their limits. And Falter cameras without the quirks just described also cost a pretty penny...
So why not go for something a bit more? You can get a Rollei SL 66 for around 350 euros... A 6006 costs hardly any more either. And if you can’t get to grips with them, you can sell them on without losing out. So anyone who really just wants to take photos – without having to worry about their kit – should steer clear of experimenting with old Eastern Bloc junk. Sure, some of the prices are tempting – but ultimately, the same applies here: ‘You get what you paid for’...
mowbray
First of all, thanks for your posts!
They’ve definitely been helpful, and after spending a few more hours on eBay and the like, I’m slowly narrowing down the cameras that are worth considering.
As I don’t want to spend too much at the moment—I just want to see how I get on with medium format—the 500C/M and Rollei 6006 are probably too expensive...
The Rollei 66 and Mamiya RB67 are probably more in the price range I’m aiming for if I’m happy with MF and want to upgrade.
Kiev cameras are apparently no good despite the low price... too unreliable
That leaves the Pentacon Six TL and Mamiya 645...
Are the Pentacons really that fragile? Can’t you trust a reputable camera dealer on eBay if they say the camera works without any problems?
In terms of value for money, the Mamiya 645 would be pretty much my ideal choice if it weren’t for the smaller format. And for me, too, 4.5x6 is actually too small for medium format. The bigger, the better...
Besides, the more compact Pentacon appeals to me because I’m on the move a lot and always have my digital SLR and lenses with me... so the light weight comes in handy if you don’t want to be lugging around kilos of kit
What’s the deal with the lenses for the Pentacon Six? Are they any good?
Here too, I don’t need or want to have high-end lenses on the camera, as I basically want to shoot slide series and then mount them on a lightbox. So no huge prints where aberrations etc. stand out.
Speaking of transparency film:
Which one should I choose if I want rich colours? It needs to really pop!
What MF cameras are actually available in 6x9 format? Is there anything out there that roughly fits my requirements?
As I said, I want to mount slides on lightboxes. The bigger the slide, the better it looks.
See you soon,
m
cfb_de
Hello "m",
Rollei 66 and Mamiya RB67
you really ought to be very, very careful when buying. Most of the time, the cameras on offer come from some professional or other and, after thirty years of continuous use, are pretty much worn out. You might get lucky with your purchase, but you might not.
Are Pentakons really that unreliable too? Can’t you trust a reputable camera dealer on eBay if they say the camera works without any problems?
A well-maintained Six isn’t necessarily any more prone to faults than a Kiev-60. However, it doesn’t like cold temperatures and needs to be handled with care and attention when winding and advancing the film. If you buy one, make sure you factor in a service straight away. Baier in Emmendingen, Wiese in Hamburg, as well as Pentacon Dresden or Olbrich in Görlitz, all have a good reputation.
The former also fit a transport control (I prefer Baier’s version), as the scanning roller in the Six is rather sensitive and occasionally causes image overlap.
And yes: you can
’t really trust a reputable camera dealer if they claim that a Six runs perfectly. Besides, the dealer will stick to one of the names mentioned above. Unfortunately, most dealers know absolutely nothing about this camera.
Unlike the Kiev-60, however, the Six only shows about 90% of the image in the viewfinder.
The more manageable Pentacon
The thing is heavy and bulky; a Hasselblad, on the other hand, would be ‘handy’.
That’s where the light weight comes in handy if you don’t want to be lugging around kilos of kit
With a standard lens and perhaps a 50mm or 180mm, you’ll quickly break the three-kilo mark. Add a tripod to that (the mirror shock on the Six and Kiev is no joke) and you’ve left the five-kilo mark behind...
My Flex doesn’t need a tripod and weighs just under 1.2kg with the bag and strap...
What about the lenses for the Pentacon Six?
As I use the same lenses on my Kiev, I’ll say a few words about them:
- 1:4/50 Flektogon (mine is SC and not a ‘Zebra’): Very good lens! A lens hood is essential.
- 1:3.5/65 Mir: My second one is decent.
- 1:2.8/80 Volna: Good.
- 1:2.8/120 Biometar: Good, but mechanically tricky. Nice and soft wide open for portraits.
- 1:2.8/180 Sonnar: Very good lens! You should have one... (Heavy!)
- 1:3.5/250 Jupiter: Good. (Heavy!)
- ‘WEP Auto-Kinetelex’ teleconverter: Rubbish with a metal mount.
Generally speaking, the Zeiss-Jena lenses show less variation in build quality than their Soviet/Ukrainian counterparts.
And yes, the lenses are the real deal! Mir/Volna/Jupiter are my Ukrainian favourites; it was only with the Mir that I got a dud with my first one. With Ukrainian lenses, bear in mind that the Kiev-88 has a different bayonet mount that doesn’t fit the Six.
With Zeiss-Jena, you can safely assume that they didn’t just wither away at the company’s headquarters in 1945 :-) Many people still adapt CZJ lenses to their Mamiya cameras today.
I can’t give you any advice on brightly coloured slides. But I can for 6x9 medium-format cameras, albeit without interchangeable lenses: have a look for the “Texas-Leica”. The Fuji GW690, as described here
on Aphog, for example.
Good luck with your further considerations!
Best regards,
Franz
ravebenni
I’ll have to get back to you,
Don’t be fooled by cheap eBay offers if you want a decent camera. For the past few years, more and more sellers have been offering real rubbish there. I bought my KIEV there too, but I was lucky.
Franz is right: if you want something portable, high-quality and reliable, you need to look for a Hasselblad. That’s obviously quite a bit more expensive than the Eastern Bloc SLRs.
The alternative is a viewfinder camera. That will still be the cheapest option.
On transparency film
I don’t know of any current ones; my AGFA films have been past their sell-by date for ten years and are in the freezer.
If you don’t intend to project them anyway and prefer 6x9, then I’d advise you to buy a viewfinder folding camera. I also don’t know of any SLR that takes 6x9 negatives. In that case, a lower-quality lens won’t be a problem either. The largest standard SLRs are likely to be the 6x7 cameras, though I can’t recall the manufacturers off the top of my head. *edit* I meant PENTAX ***
However, if you do end up buying one of those ‘Eastern Bloc’ cameras, you’ll get off cheapest with a Psix or a Kiev 60 / 6C. It’s just a bit of a ‘Russian roulette’ as to what you’ll actually get.
cfb_de
Hi Benjamin,
I agree with you about the viewfinder camera. As the OP is clearly looking for a camera capable of producing fairly large slides whilst remaining portable (which is why GF is out of the question...), he’d probably be better off looking outside the SLR range given his budget.
I’ll throw an old 6.5x9 Bergheil into the mix. It has interchangeable lenses, is nice and compact, and with a Rada roll film cassette fitted, it can also be used with longer films. The old lenses aren’t bad either (Heliar/Skopar...) and an old Rada works fine if you ignore the manual and use common sense.
But even there, you should either factor in a service or be able to do it yourself. The parts are over seventy years old. (Did I mention that I’m currently restoring an old Avus?)
Without mechanical skills, the risk of a P-Six or Kiev would be too great for me, in any case. Although back then I got a perfectly functioning K-60 for DM 120 (DM, not euros!). Complete with light well, 80mm Volna and Meßrisma.
Falters are a good alternative. As I’ve already written: anything with a decent lens and intact mechanics – it doesn’t have to be a Super-Ikonta. In terms of optical performance, my Franka Bonafix with its Radionar is in the same league as my K-60 with the 120mm Biometar. Both at f/8, although that means three stops on the Biometar and only one and a half on the Radionar. Okay, 6x9 isn’t enlarged to such a large scale, so I’d say both lenses offer the same quality at the same magnification.
Best regards,
Franz
Gerd
I’m also on the lookout for something, with similar requirements to the OP. That’s why I wanted to throw Bronica back into the mix. I’d prefer 6x6. What do you make of these cameras? Price-wise, they’re still within reason, but are they sturdy enough to still be working reliably after 20–30 years?
Gerd
Wolf_XL
Hi Gerd,
The Zensas are also worth considering. However, they have a problem with spare parts and after-sales service. Even back when the Zensas were brand new, their after-sales service wasn’t exactly renowned… The cameras themselves are actually quite robust and the lenses are good too. You just have to decide whether to buy a camera from the latest series and hope it will last a long time without any problems – or whether to buy a fully mechanical model such as the S2A, which any experienced camera mechanic can fix if the worst comes to the worst – provided they can get hold of the spare parts... If you’re set on 6x9, then I’d recommend the Texas-Leica. It doesn’t have interchangeable lenses (there was once a model like that, but it’s extremely rare) – but the format gives you so much leeway that you can make do quite well with cropping. According to Fuji, the supply of spare parts is guaranteed for years to come. I got mine directly from an eBay seller in Japan – it cost me around 650 euros including customs and other charges. Otherwise, the camera is fully mechanical and built to last a lifetime...
mowbray
Yes,
more detailed info – brilliant! There must be some real experts at work here :-)
Actually, I prefer 6x9 for its relative compactness.
The Penatcon Six really took me by surprise: it looked quite small in the photos, but then I saw the specs in the small print...It really isn’t as light and small as I thought!
But as I need to get used to a bit more weight anyway, and since the Leica Taxas was mentioned – I had a bit of a look around and I’m quite taken with it!
The prices are just a bit confusing:
The GW 690 is available on eBay for immediate purchase at
mowbray
Yes,
more detailed info – brilliant! There must be some real experts at work here :-)
Actually, I prefer 6x9 for its relative compactness.
The Penatcon Six really took me by surprise: it looked quite small in the photos, but then the specs were listed in the small print...It really isn’t as light and small as I thought!
But since the Leica Taxas was mentioned, and I’ll probably have to get used to a bit more weight anyway – I’ve had a bit of a look around and I’m quite taken with it!
The prices are just a bit confusing:
The GW 690 is available on eBay for immediate purchase at
mowbray
Hi Gerd,
Do you happen to remember who you bought your 690 from in Japan?
I have a friend in Japan who could bring one back for me.
The same goes for the US – do you happen to know of any shops in the States or Japan where you can still buy them?
Best regards,
Martin
Wolf_XL
...with the old folding cameras, the viewfinder is indeed a problem – in this case, the German term ‘Sucher’ is actually more apt than its English counterpart ‘finder’... With Bergheil and the like, you don’t have these problems, but instead you have to contend with dim ground-glass screens, the wind trying to rip the focusing cloth off your head, and your own forgetfulness, which often means you forget the slider on the roll film cassette... ;-)
But back to the Texas-Leica:
In the photo, you can see where the name comes from... :lol: :rolleyes: :lol:
UlfSpuhl
Hello,
I’m going to add my two cents’ worth too, because it’s such fun; I’ve skimmed through the whole thread.
It’s good that the collectors have comparisons of almost every model at their fingertips; that really gives you a sense of the subject matter. The point of photography isn’t so much the camera body itself, but rather the image you capture with it and, of course, a certain amount of maintenance and care for the equipment.
So, whilst reading through the thread, I found myself wondering: if it’s just a matter of a few medium-format slides for lightboxes, perhaps for advertising purposes, why not hire a photographer who brings all the necessary skills and equipment to the table?
Photography, the craft of photography, or even artistic photography requires more commitment than simply buying a camera body. So if you don’t wish to get further involved in photography, or in this specific case medium-format photography, then there’s no need to buy a camera; simply hire a photographer as a service provider for a few specific shots.
Among other things, I offer such a service in the region using a Hasselblad 500 EL/M and a DSLR, as well as the Kiev 88 for that adventurous thrill, to incorporate that part of history.
Thus, taking photographs with a harem of cameras – including Swedish, Ukrainian, Japanese, East German models, and so on – is the height of intuition and sensitivity, comparable only to the process of painting. :rolleyes:
My wife, child and fellow human beings are still getting used to my eccentricities and views regarding the visual arts, so patience is required. :lol:
Regards, fluuu
piu58
My experience with the K60 and P6 has been quite different.
I picked both cameras up from eBay and made sure the previous owner had actually used them. Admittedly, they were used by an amateur and not to the extent of shooting 10,000 rolls of film. The P6 has developed a minor fault with the viewfinder, but otherwise works fine. The K60 has never given me any trouble.
The problem is probably
- that devices with quirks tend to accumulate on eBay
- that manufacturing quality in Ukraine has had its ups and downs
So you have to take the descriptions with a pinch of salt. P6s are sometimes found on display in camera shops round here (i.e. in the East). The risk is lower there.
With both cameras, I had to retrofit internal flare suppression using self-adhesive velour. But anyone can do that. The Zeiss-Jena lenses are good, and the Ukrainian fisheye is passable, if you’re into that sort of thing.
I can shoot both cameras handheld at 1/60 with standard and wide-angle lenses and get impeccably sharp photos. Holding the camera in front of your stomach (light well!) is very advantageous for this.
Conclusion: I can recommend both cameras; for me, the P6 has the disadvantage of a smaller viewfinder image.
But I also share the following experience: after many years of medium format (which I use almost exclusively), I usually head out with the Cord. It’s much more relaxed, and not just because of the weight. The constant lens swapping is a nuisance too.
Wolfgg
But I really must mention the Mamiya Universal, a sort of souped-up Leica M. I’ve been using it for 25 years without any servicing, just the occasional clean. It offers formats ranging from 4.5x6 to 6x9 (interchangeable magazine), interchangeable lenses from 50mm to 250mm, is indestructible, and is regularly available on eBay.
Best regards, Wolfgang
EugenMezei
The one in the Prisma is complete rubbish unless it’s professionally converted to run on mercury-free batteries.
There’s no such thing as a professional conversion. Anyone offering that is a rip-off artist.
Benjamin (and others too), do you need mercury batteries? I’ve imported a whole load; they’re brand new from GP and I’d be happy to sell some.
A mercury cell lasts well over 10 years in a light meter, so there’s no point in messing about with DIY modifications.
Eugen
EugenMezei
Prices: Word has got around that the P6 and K60 are cheap, which has meant that they’re no longer cheap. (The same goes for the Prakticas.) On top of that, many classic Japanese cameras (Bronica, for example) can be bought very cheaply. If I were starting out now, I wouldn’t buy a K or a P. I might just adapt the lenses
Design: Time and again, people suggest starting with a TLR or a folding camera. I also went down the Rolleicord route and, looking back, I don’t think that was good advice. A TLR is different from an SLR, different from a rangefinder camera and different from a press camera. Apart from the format, they have absolutely nothing in common; you photograph completely differently with each one, and upgrading from the ‘simpler’ model doesn’t work.
For example, I can’t get to grips with twin-lens cameras, at best from a tripod, and there they lose all the advantages they might have when used handheld.
Eugen
