johnny
I developed two rolls of R100 film but accidentally used only one of the Bleach bath sachets instead of two. Otherwise, I had doubled all the quantities. Even during the stop bath stage, I noticed that something was different from usual. The film was brown instead of white-yellowish. I went ahead and completed all the development steps anyway.
What you can see now is an emulsion layer on one side of the film. On the other side, you can see the photos in raking light. In this state, the film is of course unusable. Is there any way to salvage the images somehow? Perhaps start again with the Bleach bath?
Christoph
Hi Johnny,
The anti-halation layer hasn’t come off. I’ve no idea how you can get it off. But before you ruin the whole roll, why not try it on the first few frames, where there aren’t any images yet? I’m not sure what happens if you put a fully developed roll of film into the Bleach bath, though.
Chris
cfb_de
I don’t know, though, what happens if you put a fully developed film into the Bleach bath.
Hi Chris,
Why not take a fully developed black-and-white print and pour some permanganate bleach over it? Then you’ll find out :-) Tip: I wouldn’t necessarily use my irreplaceable favourite print for this.
In short: the image is gone.
Best regards,
Franz
MirkoBoeddecker
...but you can always bring it back out with a toning process...
Why not give a standard toning kit a go?
Bleaching and sulphur toning. For example, from Moersch or Classic.
In relation to this specific mishap, I’ve never actually tried this myself, of course, and it would require a more in-depth chemical analysis to make a truly reliable statement, but I could well imagine that you’d be able to remove the antihalation with the bleach and restore the silver image using sulphur toning.
Perhaps give it a go with a single print and a pair of tweezers.
Best regards,
Mirko
cfb_de
Please note: When bleaching, there is a risk that the bleached-out silver image may become water-soluble. This is the principle behind the bleaching agents used in the reversal process. The silver image oxidised in the Bleach bath is washed out, whilst the sparingly soluble silver halides in the unexposed parts of the emulsion remain.
So first try out a suitable Bleach bath on a scrap piece (hexacyanoferrate, for example) and see if the antihalation is also removed. Strictly speaking, this is removed oxidatively during processing, but unfortunately bleaching agents of sufficient strength make the latent image soluble. I do consider experiments with halide additives to be interesting (in the event of halide surprises, the latent image should be fixed in place as a poorly soluble substance the moment it forms), but I find them too labour-intensive for a single roll of film. Furthermore, the result is likely to be very grainy.
Best regards,
Franz, away on business
ChristianKolinski
...but you can always bring it back with toning...
But – what is the AHU made of? If it contains silver, you’ll probably bring that back too...
Regards
Christian
cfb_de
If there’s silver in there too
Hi Christian,
I’d put the probability at around 100%...
Best regards,
Franz
AndreMilchewski
If there’s silver in there too
Hi Christian,
I’d put the probability of that at roughly 100%...
Why on earth would there be silver in the AHU? As far as I know, it only contains colorant, which dissolves again in the fixer (or at least should do).
I can’t make sense of all this talk about putting it back in the Bleach bath, especially as some people here
don’t seem to know the difference between a rehalogenating Bleach bath, which is used for toner and negative-to-positive processing (not reversal!), and the Bleach bath for reversal processing.
The brown stain could also be due to residual staining from the bleach
which is removed by the sodium sulphite solution, or it might be some kind of rancid developer residue,
but without seeing the film directly and knowing the components of the reversal kit used,
I’m just shooting in the dark here.
If I assume that the Foma reversal kit is based on the classic, quantitative reversal process,
an incorrect dosage of the Bleach bath won’t make much difference; it simply works more slowly or has a lower capacity. Brown ‘stale’ tints are unlikely to result from this.
Another possibility is that if the brown tinge is perhaps a fog caused by incomplete reversal, it might be worth trying a little Farmer’s stop bath.
If I am mistaken in any of my assumptions, please do correct me.
AndreMilchewski
After a few attempts in the darkroom, I think I’ve identified the problem:
The bleaching time was simply too short.
To remove the brown tinge, the films should be bleached in a rehalogenating Bleach bath, rinsed
and then redeveloped using any film or paper developer.
However, if insufficient bleaching has caused irregularities, fogging or similar issues,
the film is, of course, still ruined.
ChristianKolinski
If there’s silver in there too
Hi Christian,
I’d put the probability of that at around 100%...
Why on earth would there be silver in the AHU? As far as I know, it only contains colorant, which dissolves (or should dissolve) in the fixer.
Because that’s what the manufacturer has stated.
Because that is precisely why you cannot develop Fomapan 100R as a negative film.
With this particular film, the AHU simply does not dissolve in the fixer or the pre-rinse, but only in the Bleach bath.
However, without seeing the film directly and knowing the components of the reversal kit used,
I’m just guessing here.
Yes, that’s how it sounds.
If I assume that the Foma reversal kit is based on the classic, quantitative reversal process,
an incorrect dosage of the Bleach bath won’t make much difference; it simply works more slowly or has a lower capacity. It probably can’t cause brown ‘rancidity’ as a result.
Yes, it can, because the silver-based AHU isn’t dissolved.
And that’s brown, after all.
Regards
Christian
cfb_de
Christian,
Thank you.
Best regards,
Franz
johnny
Many thanks to everyone for the lively participation. Unfortunately, I didn’t understand everything, so I just went ahead and did some ‘research’ with a roll of film :ph34r: . I carried on using the chemicals from the standard reversal kit. This time, I did Step 2 (Bleach bath), followed by Step 3 (rinse bath)... and... something actually happened: crystal-clear film, but unfortunately everything’s gone. :D
I then tried again with another piece, starting from step 3: the cleaning bath, but nothing happened at all. Should I perhaps continue with a milder Bleach bath? What is a rehalogenating Bleach bath? Is the one in the Fomakit that sort of thing?
As far as I understood the answers, Franz’s assumption was correct. Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about the subject. As long as it works according to plan, that’s fine. I’m afraid the technical terms aren’t helping me much, and I didn’t think it was worth stocking up on chemicals on a whim just for two films.
I took another close look at the film today (having had a bit of time to get over the initial disappointment). The brown emulsion on the glossy side isn’t actually completely light-tight everywhere. In some places, the image from the other side shows through faintly. As I mentioned before, you could already make it out in the side light. It’s still in the negative. Logically, the reversal process hasn’t taken place at all. Because there wasn’t enough chemical, there simply wasn’t enough time (as Christian suspected).
I’ll get started on the next roll of film early next week. This time in streaks. I’d be grateful for any further tips or suggestions on how to proceed. There’s nothing to lose.
Cheers
Johnny
cfb_de
Hi Johnny,
> What is a rehalogenating bleach bath?
This process uses oxidation and the simultaneous presence of halide ions (i.e. chloride, bromide, iodide) to convert elemental silver back into sparingly soluble silver halide, which can then be re-exposed and redeveloped.
> Is that what’s in Fomakit?
Not, for good reason. With reversal processing, the aim is to get rid of the negative somehow, and as permanently as possible.
> As far as I’ve understood the answers, Franz’s assumption was correct.
That doesn’t surprise me at all :-)
> Unfortunately, I don’t know the first thing about the subject. As long as it works according to plan, that’s fine. So
> the technical terms don’t get me any further, and I didn’t think it was worth
> stocking up on chemicals on the off chance for just two rolls of film.
Unfortunately, film development is one of the classic textbook examples of complex chemistry in everyday life.
In my opinion, there’s no getting round the need for understanding, experience, learning and practice.
> It’s still in the negative stage. Logically, the reversal process hasn’t taken place at all. Due to the
> insufficient chemical concentration, there simply wasn’t enough time (as Christian suspected).
Will a bleach bath do the trick? And is a second exposure enough?
> I’ll get started on the next roll of film early next week. This time in strips. I’d be grateful for any further tips or
> suggestions on the procedure. There’s nothing to lose.
There’s still the Hilgert/Rohleder guide. And when I think back to how casually a HIE was reversed at the Mosel meet-up last weekend... Then B&W reversal processing isn’t a big deal if you do it properly. That was a lab process as straightforward as cooking spaghetti.
Best regards,
Franz
