splifftune
Hello,
I’m new to the forum and have a few questions as I’m still experimenting in the darkroom. I’ve done a lot of reading up on the subject beforehand and have now carried out my first experiments in the darkroom. First, the background:
I shoot large format 13x18 and 9x12, preferably with Agfa APX 100.
I now want to carry out the negative development myself and, because of the large format, have opted for a Jobo CPE2 rotary processor with a 4541 drum.
I use Tetenal chemicals: Ultrafin liquid developer, Indicet and Superfix.
My first attempt wasn’t great: streaks, light spots and black fogs.
On the second attempt, I followed the same procedure but this time pre-rinsed for 2 minutes and set the motor speed to 2: slightly better but still black fogs in the corners.
Now the questions:
-What is actually the correct fill level for the 4541 drum?
-The pre-rinse water was deep black – is that normal?
-Do you need to rinse in between?
-The indicator in the fixer turns colour after a single development: is that normal?
-Do I need to extend the development time if I’m developing four films at once?
Lots of questions! – Thanks in advance!!
PeterVolkmar
Hello,
The 4541 is a drum for paper, isn’t it? I once developed 13x18 CPA film using a paper drum, but I used special flat film adapters – these are rigid plastic sheets with raised dots that keep the film slightly away from the back wall, ensuring better circulation of the chemical. It worked without any problems.
Nowadays I also use a CPE2 (with lift) with 2523 canisters and a flat film spiral. That only works up to 9x12/4x5. Very good results, no problems.
-What is actually the correct fill level for the 4541 drum?
I don’t know, but how many films do you put in? With drums for paper, you need so little chemical that the minimum amount the film requires is actually always enough.
-The pre-rinse water was deep black – is that normal?
I don’t know about APX, but depending on the film, you’ll experience your own colourful wonder ;-)
-Do you need to rinse in between?
No. I pre-rinse, develop, stop, fix and rinse.
-The indicator in the fixer turns colour after a single development: is that normal?
I don’t use indicators. Depending on the dilution, that can happen; the rotation introduces a lot of air, so perhaps that’s why it changes colour? But there are other experts here for that.
-Do I need to extend the development time if I’m developing four films at once?
Single or multiple developer? 9x12 or 13x18?
Here’s the thing: 2 x 13x18 or 4 x 9x12/4x5 correspond in terms of surface area to a 35mm film. So base the number of films and the amount of developer on that.
Otherwise, I’d quite like a name; I really don’t want to address anyone as ‘splifftune’, and then I’ll be rude and point you towards the GF forum in this forum: <http://www.grossformatfotografie.de/>
Regards, Peter
Renate
Hello,
Large-format photography (LF) is the pinnacle of photography. LF is also very demanding in the darkroom. It is not suitable for those new to darkroom work. Practical experience cannot be replaced by studying books.
The larger the area of the negative, the more complicated it is to develop the film evenly. Rotation is the least favourable method for developing film. The developer isn’t really mixed thoroughly. Ultrafin isn’t exactly the right developer for beginners either. APX as a sheet film hasn’t been manufactured for a long time and may therefore have deteriorated.
My advice is – and I mean this quite seriously – to practise first with 35mm film and a straightforward developer, such as ID11. Once you can produce really good (exhibition-quality) prints, it’s time to venture into large format.
Best regards
Renate
max
Hi splifftune (Peter’s already had a go at this),
let’s see what’s easy to answer:
The indicator is in the stop bath, not in the fixer. Whether it then reverses depends on how much stop bath and how much developer remains in the tank.
Better still: just one batch. If you can’t buy your citric acid in hundredweight sacks from the winegrowers’ cooperative like Franz does, the little pound-sized tubs from the chemist’s will still see you through for years.
APX and black antihalation? I’m afraid I don’t know either.
Regarding your error pattern: sounds like multiple errors.
Black fog: light leak during transfer or in the camera.
Bright droplets: sloppy work. Possibly fixer splashed onto the film before developing.
Streaks: Uneven development. The back of the film doesn’t need to be rinsed, but if, for example, the 13x18 film—which is quite small for a paper drum (unfortunately I don’t know your can)—doesn’t lie fully against the outer wall (emulsion side inwards, of course), you’re bound to get some major issues.
@ Renate:
35mm is generally less demanding in the darkroom than medium format. This is particularly true when it comes to film development.
Furthermore, if our spliff tends to experiment carefully and take notes, it’s considerably better to be able to develop each sheet individually than to struggle through a whole (even a 24-exposure) medium format roll and develop it roughly to the centre. An exception would be something like the old Exakta with a single-frame meter :D.
You can forget about developing 2–3 identical exposures differently with 35mm.
And when testing, it’s actually cheaper (1 sheet of 13x18 versus 1 roll of 135??), but otherwise not really.
Otherwise, as Peter already wrote: www.grossformatfotografie.de
Regards
Martin
P.S.: Oh yes, and if you’re looking for an uncomplicated developer for large format, then Rodinal. One-shot; always start with a dilution of 1:50 or 1:25. No extension factors or anything else.
Renate
Hello Max,
I have many years’ experience with both small and large formats. I know what I’m talking about. I still advise beginners against using GF. There are far more potential sources of error, and the resulting frustration is just as great. You can only reap the benefits of single-frame development once you know how to do it.
Best regards,
Renate
max
Hi Renate,
Without wishing to question your experience, what other potential sources of error do you see?
Old film spools with uncertain production dates?
Extension factors for long exposures?
Manual winding instead of automatic?
None of this has anything to do with the darkroom, but with the exposure itself.
In the darkroom, I find the flat films absolutely brilliant. No hanging streaks in the reel – if necessary, just pop them in the tray – and no rolling films. For those with poor hand-eye coordination, the large films are a godsend. You can stomp on them, and afterwards you can still make out an image between the scratches. You can wash off limescale stains, or if you hang them by the corner, there aren’t any at all. Retouching the negative can be done with a pencil and without a magnifying glass. (How one can retouch KB properly on the negative remains a mystery to me to this day; I suppose there are just artists)
Has it gone royal? Never mind, you can enlarge 13x18 by a maximum of x5. Over- or under-developed/exposed? Where KB bleeds out, GF still has tonal values (it’s no longer ideal).
What is true is the fact. With the paper drum, one image per run. With 4x5 in the Jobo spiral, just 6; with 13x18 in the Profidrum, 5. 5–10 in a stack in the tray strikes me as rather suspect. The sense of achievement from fishing a nice image out of the first black-and-white film is, of course, something else entirely. A 1-in-36 success rate is hard-earned with GF.
And of course, once you’ve worked your way through the formats, the expectations for an A5 negative are much higher than for a postage stamp, but when I look at my first 35mm self-experiments, they wouldn’t have turned out any worse in large format – on the contrary. I started developing film after I’d already bought the roll-type processor. Apart from the truly tedious process of loading the 120 films, they worked just as well, if not better, than 35mm right from the start.
If Spliff understands that, and he does want to learn darkroom work (in which case I’ll assume he can already take photos – ‘I take large-format photos’), I stand by my view that it would be nonsense to possibly buy a 35mm camera as well.
I’ve been developing 8x11 to 8x10 here for years now, and quite honestly, the smaller the format, the more of a nightmare it is. If only because, with micro-negatives, the battle between grain, sharpness, resolution and tonal range rages far more fiercely.
Ultimately, 35mm exposure is often a compromise in terms of exposure, simply because of the familiar camera operation. Anyone who needs five minutes to set up also has the time to measure carefully.
And the best way to a well-developed negative is a well-exposed negative.
If Spliff, on the other hand, is only just learning to take photos, you’re right. (see above) Then, of course, you’re happy with that one nice picture from the roll, rather than having to fish 35 duds out of the pot before you get the first hit.
And of course, I’ll admit it, anything larger than 8x10 becomes unwieldy again.
This has gone on a bit; it wasn’t meant to be a broadside. But that’s just how I see it.
Regards
Martin
splifftune
Thanks for all the replies to my questions and the tip about www.grossformatfotografie.de!!
I took your suggestions on board and gave them a go yesterday – and at least half of the prints look really good!! The other half (from the same drum) still have a few white spots. Am I perhaps using too much developer (400ml)??
On the subject of the discussion: as I’ve only been to the lab a few times so far, I naturally don’t know what’s easier to develop. However, I’d like to develop black-and-white film myself, as I’ve been shooting black-and-white for a long time and the nearest lab that develops it is 50 km away, charges an arm and a leg, and sometimes even ruins the film! I shoot colour as well, of course, but mostly not on film anymore. But perhaps I should leave the digital camera at home more often and do more analogue photography!
Wolfgg
As Renate said, you can practise the basics of film development using KB film. You don’t need to use up a whole 36-exposure roll (where would you find that many subjects so quickly?), just take three shots, cut the film in the darkroom, pop it in the canister, and off you go. It’s much cheaper, too.
Best wishes, Wolfgang
max
Hi spliff,
The spots (drop-shaped) seem to be building up as if your can wasn’t 100% dry when you put the film in. The film needs to be submerged all at once, either in the pre-rinse or in the developer.
I once had a set of sheets that I rotated in the Jobo ‘over the knee’ when I didn’t have a CPE yet. In the ten seconds or so it took me to put the lid on and tip it over, they developed a fringe where the developer had pooled when I poured it in. And that was with Emofin, i.e. a two-bath process.
Another point where Renate is right: the problem doesn’t arise with KB, as you simply fill it up to the brim over the film.
400ml should be plenty, by the way.
Regards
Martin
