Gast
One more question?
Is the much-vaunted DS-10 developer available as a ready-made product, or do I have to cobble it together myself?
Many thanks!
Regards
Goldfinger
cfb_de
Do it yourself. Simple and cheap.
Best regards,
Franz
Gast
Hi Franz,
First of all: thank you very much!
I’ve already found the recipe, but where can I get hold of the chemicals?
My chemist just gave me a blank stare!!
Many thanks!
Mike
FrankJBeckmann
Hi Auric,
In theory, you can get the chemicals from mail-order suppliers. But these days, the men in black are sure to come knocking. I don’t know which mail-order suppliers are still in business. Foto-Brenner also stocks chemicals, and you could have a go at asking Calbe or Wephota.
Wolfgg
Here’s my list of links to untested suppliers; the first one sounds specifically like photographic chemicals:
http://www.genec.de/pch1-2004br.htm
http://www.omikron-online.de/cgi-bin/cosmoshop/lshop.cgi
http://www.koehlerchemie.de/
http://www.steiner-chemie.de/unternehmen.php
http://www.fiebig-lehrmittel.de/
But: in the run-up to the football spectacle, the ‘better people’ and watchdogs in this country of ours are on high alert?! As a private chemical enthusiast, it’s therefore better to buy anonymously at the moment. Unfortunately, pharmacies are poor sources, as they only stock small quantities themselves, which automatically results in pharmacy prices for us. It’s best to ask the first one at the top whether they’ve already had uniformed officers on the premises. Or wait until this squabbling between 22 adults over one ball is over.
Regards, Wolfgang
cfb_de
Hello Wolfgang,
Genec no longer exists; at least, his widow wanted to close the shop after his death in 2005.
Regarding buying chemicals in general: it’s always a good idea to drive to the shops. From any little town in the countryside, there’s a chemical supplier within a 75km radius. Call ahead to ask if they sell to private individuals, then drive there if necessary.
The advantage of this is that it builds greater trust, the supplier can help you fill in things like end-use certificates, and you can show your ID directly (which would take care of age verification and identity checks for any required record book).
It is also sometimes advisable to pop into the nearest university. Most university chemical supply shops also sell chemicals there.
Best regards,
Franz
Wolfgg
Hi Franz,
And yet Genec seemed the most suitable name for a photo-chemistry business. What a shame.
Do you happen to know what became of Fototechnik Suvatlar in Hamburg, who took over CG-Professional after Udo Raffay’s death in mid-1997? It’s really annoying that chemists these days only stock household goods. Until about 25 years ago, even towns with 20,000 inhabitants still had proper chemicals departments. Even as a 14-year-old, I could once walk straight out with red-fuming nitric acid, for example! Of course, they’d ask what it was for. But ‘for a chemistry experiment’ was always enough of an answer. And no one ever asked for my name or address anyway. It was pure paradise compared to today.
Regards, Wolfgang
cfb_de
Hello Wolfgang,
Yes, the situation with Genec is tragic. Not just because I managed to get hold of the last 25g of uranium nitrate freely available in Europe through Mr Neubauer.
I don’t know anything at all about Suvatlar. I placed an order there (‘bulk order’) and that went through without any problems six months ago.
On the subject of safety hysteria: on the one hand, I know that the restrictions imposed by the legislature are largely based on the ignorance of the responsible civil servants and decision-makers (being allowed to deliver a training course on hazardous substances at the Department for the Environment... afterwards you’re completely disillusioned).
On the other hand, I welcome the restrictions for two reasons: Firstly, it significantly reduces the risk to life. How many experiments have been carried out in the kitchen and not properly cleaned up afterwards? Secondly, unfortunately, when it comes to people under 25 in the photography sector today, we are largely dealing with people who are completely ignorant of chemicals, who can neither recognise the risks nor behave appropriately. Due to a lack of knowledge. That is the downside of analogue photography having now ended up in the realm of ‘art’ and having long since departed from the realm of conscious ‘craftsmanship’. School education does the rest.
In that context, a particularly amusing email came from an “artist” who wanted to make cyanotypes and, after some muddled rambling (“I don’t have acetic acid, but there’s some acid here with a black label”), asked me for it.
I could have helped improve the human genome there by process of elimination...
I really ought to say that no photographer without an official certificate of competence should be allowed to buy even soda from a chemical supplier. On the other hand, the many who know exactly how to handle homemade solutions would then end up footing the bill for these idiots.
Hence my advice on buying chemicals: go there in person. At the counter, the customer is then subject to a quality check. In other words, the question “does he know what he’s doing?” is answered there. And then you either get the products from your order list or you don’t.
Anyone who doesn’t get anything there shouldn’t go whingeing in forums along the lines of “those nasty arseholes at XYZ wouldn’t sell me anything”; he or she should prepare for a second visit there and learn a bit about what it’s actually all about.
My expectations of home brewers are the same as those of people who presume to spend their time idly in front of the stove: know what you’re doing. Anyone can tear open a packet of instant soup and mix it up.
Best regards,
Franz
Wolfgg
Hi Franz,
According to the directory, Sulvatar is still in business; Goldfinger might want to give them a ring in Hamburg (040/395709) and enquire (ask them to send a price list).
As for the cyanide artist: when I hear the extent to which young people are willing to act as guinea pigs for drugs (parties, discos, etc.), I’ve long since thought: if someone doesn’t care about their life expectancy, let them get on with it, as long as they don’t harm others in the process.
For the younger ones, here’s an example of what chemistry lessons were like at secondary school in the 1970s: back then, the teachers were still proper hard-nosed characters who shied away from nothing and were allowed to do anything. One day, he stood at the lab bench wearing a face shield and gloves and, to the horror of the wimps among the pupils (especially the girls), actually produced nitroglycerine. Some cowered behind the back benches out of fear. But there was no reason to be afraid. He knew exactly what he was doing, unlike those teachers who, lacking the necessary expertise, just want to show off – they were a danger. He then soaked pieces of blotting paper in the nitro, which volunteers were supposed to strike with a hammer. Apart from yours truly, no one came forward. But the highlight was yet to come: in the afternoon, as per the rota, it was the chemistry club, where everyone was allowed to make it themselves. Under his supervision, of course. In case anyone faints at the thought and considers this teacher irresponsible: the exact opposite is true. Back then, we learnt how to handle hazardous substances responsibly – indeed, how to deal with hazardous situations in general. To be precise: hazardous situations become safe if you always know a little more than the situation requires, a principle that has proven its worth in road traffic over the years. That was really tough training back then. Today, the Explosives Act probably means ‘everything is banned’, which takes the fun out of chemistry lessons. Somehow, it doesn’t surprise me anymore when I hear that a whopping 60% of A-level students want to study business or law. The number of lawyers has doubled in just 12 years. But a career is certainly guaranteed there!
Regards, Wolfgang
FrankJBeckmann
Hi there,
We had a chemistry teacher like that too – one who really taught you something. We were actually the last year group allowed to make and set off a smoke bomb. And we used oxyhydrogen gas to shoot cans into the air. :-)
I had a massive problem the other day when I wanted to buy potassium iodide solution. The young, dynamic new chemist in our village first asked, “What on earth is that?”. So I went round all the chemists in the nearest small town. Most of them don’t stock any chemicals at all anymore. One chemist said it was far too risky to sell chemicals anymore, because if a customer messed up with them, the seller would be held liable. And he’d already had problems with the authorities. One female chemist even said you never knew what customers intended to do with the chemicals; you could make a bomb out of almost anything, and these days there were plenty of bomb-makers and terrorists about. She must be a keen reader of Focus magazine. But eventually I got lucky, and a really capable female pharmacist promptly prepared the solution for me for very little money. She said that they also used to make silver nitrate. Now I know where to go if I need any more chemicals.
Wolfgg
Incidentally, you can actually still buy soda (sodium carbonate) in the supermarket, specifically as ‘Heitmann Reine Soda’ in the laundry detergent aisle (in my case, at Kaufland). It’s a good grease remover for the kitchen through saponification. I’m not sure, though, whether it’s pure enough for photographic purposes. And while I’m on the subject of household chores: as there’s always a green one peeking out of the official toilet cleaners these days – meaning the stuff is no longer any good – you can get HCL at the Müller chemist’s.
Regards, Wolfgang
cfb_de
Hello Wolfgang,
Why wouldn’t washing soda be good enough for photographic purposes? The ‘photographic grade’ or ‘pro photo’ purity is only marginally higher than ‘technical grade’. No housewife would let such filth near her laundry.
That said, the purity grades merely indicate that the stuff meets at least the specified purity standard; as a rule, the chemicals are significantly purer.
Best regards,
Franz
Wolfgg
Hi Franz,
I can’t find the exact passage anymore, but Raffay wrote somewhere that you should only use high-purity chemicals for photographic purposes, if only because of the heavy metal issue (catalytic oxidation of the developing agent). Some developers don’t use complexing agents, of course. But I suppose it’s our mixing equipment and the development tanks (which aren’t made of very smooth glass) that determine how much ‘dirt’ ends up in our solution anyway.
Regards, Wolfgang
skahde
I’ve already found the recipe, but where can I get hold of the chemicals?
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Even though everyone’s almost on to the next topic :) :
All the ingredients for the DS10 are available from Omikron-online. Dimezone-S isn’t in the standard catalogue, but they can get hold of it at reasonable prices, if you’re to believe the reports from the usual suspects on the neighbouring forum. Vitamin C in powder form is available at Schlecker, DM or whatever your local chemist’s is called.
Best regards
Stefan
cfb_de
Hi Wolfgang,
What Raffay wrote (God rest his soul) and what he actually did in his company... those are two different things.
Since ‘technically’ is really enough, you’ve made your point yourself with that nice quip about grubby tins :-) And that’s all there is to it. The scope for variation in terms of concentration, temperature, and tilting/rotation rates is already so vast that it’s starting to become a bloody waste of time whether the raw materials are now “photograde min. 85%”, “pure” or “for UV spectroscopy”.
As long as we here in our spoilt republic always get at least one grade better than what’s on the label anyway.
In Italy, for example, ‘pro photo’ is a quality mark (because: they don’t have ‘technical’ there; they only distinguish between rubbish and analytical grade. A clear commitment to technical chemistry!). And every homemade recipe clearly states that you can test it per batch.
I still use properly manufactured industrial products or carefully prepared homemade mixtures. Let’s not even get started on a working balance, clean reactants (nothing less than “ultra-pure” goes into my flask) and clean water.
That leaves just two potential sources of error: my own stupidity during preparation and my process during processing.
There’s no cure for stupidity during processing. The ‘industry’ (which these days has to be put in quotation marks) does things differently: they have proper incoming analysis and adjust their product formulation accordingly.
Prime examples of this would be ‘Rodinal’, ‘ID11’ or ‘R09’.
With those, however, I know that there’s more in the bottle than the formula suggests. More inert gunk. That’s not a problem if you buy ready-made solutions. But it becomes a real issue when it comes to making your own, as you usually don’t know this with “pro photo” reagents, and the keen DIYer doesn’t have the necessary analytical equipment lying around at home either.
Best regards,
Franz
Gast
Hi there!
I’ve just phoned Ms Neubauer at genec to ask if they still have any photographic chemicals in stock. She told me that they still have pretty much everything in stock and are still selling it, but they aren’t buying any new stock.
However, she won’t be in the office next week, so orders can’t be processed until the week after next.
You’ll need to check whether Dimezone-S is still available before placing an order.
Incidentally, Dimezone-S is also listed directly in Omikron’s online shop (
Omikron).
See you later
Guido
cfb_de
Hi Guido,
That’s great news!
Best regards,
Franz
Rocketman
Hello everyone!
Omikron really does have everything. I managed to get the potassium permanganate needed for the reversal process in ‘ultra-pure’ form, as well as sulphuric acid, potassium thiocyanate and sodium sulphite. However, proof of age, a declaration regarding the end use (in this case for KMnO4 – I wonder why??? :-) ) and confirmation of proper handling are required.
Best regards,
Sebastian
Wolfgg
It looks like Genec is no longer in business, unfortunately. I faxed an order for chemicals at the end of May, but it still hasn’t been processed. Nobody answers the phone (02504/880578) at any time of day either. If anyone knows anything, please post a reply.
Best regards, Wolfgang
