Gast
Hello, forum members!
Over the past few days (or rather, nights), I’ve been trying my hand at my first lith prints.
I used the Moersch Master Set, with Forte PW, ADOX Vario Classic and Fomabrom papers.
After a bit of trial and error, I managed to produce some good lith prints on Forte and ADOX (‘good’ simply means that my girlfriend and I like them!), but I had problems with the Fomabrom! No chance of getting it to work for lith printing – not when I mixed the chemicals according to the Moersch instructions, nor with my own experiments (extreme ones, i.e. 5- to 7-fold overexposure, a stronger developer solution, variations in the ratio of parts A and B, etc.). I always got only very faint outlines/image traces, and that’s how it stayed – even after 30 minutes in the developer!
I ordered the Fomabrom from Foto-Impex this autumn; it didn’t arrive straight away, as it had to be back-ordered. This leads me to suspect that perhaps something has been changed in the emulsion, and the paper is no longer lith.
Does anyone have any ideas as to
- what I might have done wrong (as mentioned, it worked perfectly with ADOX and Forte),
- whether the (new?) Fomabrom is still suitable for lith printing, or
- how I can get it to work for lith printing?
Many thanks in advance for your replies, and
wishing you a Happy New Year,
Johannes
MirkoBoeddecker
Hello Johannes,
The fact that we had to make a backorder for Fomabrom is due to the fact that fixed-grade baryta paper is now generally treated as an ‘order on demand’ product.
This means that although manufacturers can still produce it, they no longer keep it in stock. We are now doing our best, at considerable logistical expense, to counter this by setting up a temporary warehouse and keeping constant “pending orders” on hold. When enough orders have accumulated, the manufacturers start up the machine and make a batch. Our “pending order” then gets included in that batch, and eventually the paper arrives.
That’s what happened with your pack too – hence the backorder.
The emulsion has NOT been changed.
How many attempts at Foma Lith is this for you?
I didn’t manage to produce anything decent at all during my first 10 sessions with Foma either.
It’s far more complicated than with PW, Museum or Nuance.
The emulsion hasn’t been changed, but the Moersch instruction sheet – as good as it is, and it is excellent – can only serve as a guide for the first attempt.
Did you prepare the developer for Foma fresh, or did you subsequently add the Moersch additive to the solution from the PW lith tests, which was already enriched with bromide?
Regards,
Mirko
Gast
Mirko Boeddecker wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Johannes,
>
> How many attempts at Foma lith have you made now?
My first! But: Vario Classic isn’t exactly supposed to be easy to lith print either – it worked out well!
>
> During my first 10 sessions with Foma, I also
> didn’t manage to produce anything decent at all.
Then please do tell me the details of your 11th and subsequent sessions with Fomabrom. Many thanks in advance!
>
> It’s far more complicated than with PW. Museum
> or Nuance.
>
> Did you prepare the developer for Foma fresh
> or did you add the Moersch
> additive to the solution
> from the PW lith tests, which was already enriched with bromide?
>
It was freshly prepared!
Best regards! Johannes
MirkoBoeddecker
Johannes,
That data won’t be of any use to you now, as I used to work with the old MACO Lith and Kodalith back when Moersch Lith didn’t even exist yet.
But since you’re working with Moersch chemicals, why not report the whole thing to Wolfgang in as much detail as possible?
If you really couldn’t make head nor tail of his figures, it’s in his interest to check the data sheet.
Why does it absolutely have to be Fomabrom lith?
There really are easier options for beginners, e.g. Fomatone ;-)
Best regards,
Mirko
Gast
Hi Mirko,
I chose Fomabrom because I really liked the sample images, and I want the colours described in the Moers leaflet...
Of course, there are lighter paper options, but – as I mentioned – it worked with the Vario Classic too, and that’s considered a more challenging lith paper.
Well, thanks anyway for your replies!
Best regards from
Johannes
Gast
Hello Johannes,
Fomabrom is indeed difficult to lith print, but it should be possible, and it’s definitely worth the effort. If a developer accelerator or brightener were involved, the paper would turn black immediately (that’s what I gather from Moersch’s instructions on how to test paper for lith suitability). However, from your description, I gather that the slowed development is working, but the infectious development isn’t happening. In that case, it’s more likely to be down to the chemistry.
I assume you mixed the solution specifically for Fomabrom according to the instructions, and didn’t use the same mixture for different papers? If so, try the following: use less C and D, as C prevents graininess, but if you use too much, the density is lost, and D delays the lith effect that you didn’t get. Fomabrom is very sensitive to an overdose of D. Are you sure you performed the dilution 1:4 with water beforehand? If not, you’ve added five times too much of both. If it’s not down to C and D, try mixing a richer solution overall and heating the water to 24 degrees Celsius. Don’t add more than plus 3 or 4 stops. And be patient. It can still take 20 to 30 minutes.
Good luck!
Samuli
Gast
Hi Samuli!
I did it exactly as you described – following the instructions for Fomabrom, with a 1:4 dilution, using only half the recommended amount, but still nothing after 15 minutes (according to Moersch, it should take far less time).
I think it’s down to the emulsion! Vario Classic works absolutely brilliantly in Calbe Lith developer (with regular regeneration using working solution – approx. 100–150ml after the 3rd to 4th 30x40 print, no graininess either – and that’s without any fiddling with additives), as does Forte (coloured), but Fomabrom is a no-go. Vario Classic produces a fine grain, doesn’t get too heavy in the shadows and has a subtle colour (most akin to a pastel yellow-ochre to a slight pinkish tinge with heavier exposure).
In both lith developers (Moersch and Calbe), the wheels on the test strip turn black after about 10 minutes (!?), otherwise only minimal image traces; even after 15–20 minutes, no conclusive results.
Or perhaps I just can’t get on with Fomabrom – well, it works very well with other papers.
I’m having more fun with the Calbe developer at the moment – I don’t need any additives to prevent grain or to slow down the development. Nothing against the Moersch solutions, but if there’s an easier way...!?
Thanks again for your detailed reply and best regards!
Johannes
P.S.: If you ever do any experiments with Fomabrom Variant, please let me know your results!
Gast
Johannes,
Moersch Easy Lith is also easier to use. The set comes with two bottles; different mixing ratios produce different results. It comes with a good set of instructions. The Calbe will run out eventually (or is it still available?).
I use Easy Lith and am happy with it (old Orwo Baryth and Foma).
Best regards,
Ronald
MirkoBoeddecker
I think it's down to the emulsion!
As I said before, nothing has been changed in the emulsion.
The Calbe Lith developer isn’t exactly spring-fresh anymore, and the whole process is too complex to draw conclusions along the lines of: ‘Since it works for A, B must have been changed because I can’t get it to work with it’.
There must be some reason why Fomabrom isn’t working for you at the moment, but it isn’t down to a change in the emulsion formula.
Best regards,
Mirko
SamuliSchielke
Hello Johannes,
Could you send me the emulsion number of the Fomabrom that you tried to print without success? What gradient? Matt or gloss? I’ll be testing Fomabrom Variant for printability soon, and I can see if I can reproduce your problem using the paper I have in stock.
Samuli
Gast
Hi Samuli,
Thanks for your reply – I’ll send you the emulsion number later (I need to go and check first – the film is stored in the basement in an airtight, dry box). The gradient was ‘normal’.
I’m already looking forward to seeing what comes of your experiments with the Fomabrom Variant!
Warm regards from a -10°C cold Salzburg,
Johannes
Gast
Hello Samuli!
Here are the details of the Fomabrom:
Fomabrom N111, Gloss
Batch number: 010248/08
If you send me your address (jvr@gmx.at), I’ll be happy to send you a pack of 10 (though I only have 30x40 cm sheets) for your experiments (free of charge as a thank you for determining your lith data for Fomabrom N111 and Fomabrom Variant).
Best regards,
Johannes
RWSchueller
Hello Johannes,
Fomabrom is my favourite paper for the Moersch Lith process. The tones are very beautiful – not overly saturated like with ADOX PWT, but very pleasing. I don’t know what you did wrong. I mix Lith A:B: water 1:1:30 without adding anything else. I perform overexposure on Fomabrom with a factor of about 3. I leave the print in the tray until the blacks develop. Occasionally, I place the print very briefly in a second tray with a very dilute developer to lighten the highlights slightly. This means the typical Lith effect is lost, but the results are very beautiful images.
Best regards,
Reinhard
SamuliSchielke
I’ve now tested Johannes’s Fomabrom kit, and it works perfectly well. Either Johannes’s developer was too cold, or there was some kind of non-reproducible process error.
Moersch Lith Masterset, 750 ml water, 25 ml A, 25 ml B, 2.5 ml C, 10 D, +4 stops, keep the print moving constantly in the developer. At 23 to 24 degrees, it takes 5–7 minutes for the first detail to become visible, the first density appears in 13–14 minutes, and the image is ready in 17–18 minutes. If the solution cools down, everything takes much longer.
Very nice, subtle tones in the highlights (somewhere in the region of beige, umber and ochre), blacks very (!) rich. Dramatic effect, looks cool but isn’t suitable for every image.
By changing the ratio of A and B, using a shorter exposure and correspondingly less C and D, I hope to make the black a bit more moderate. It’s easier with Easylith, but I don’t have any of that in stock. Does anyone have a good recipe for Masterset?
Regards,
Samuli
