william5
I need some advice on the following problem:
When using Polywarmton paper, I end up with a slight pinkish undertone. This is only noticeable in the white areas, such as the unexposed edge.
The paper is processed using the following chemicals:
- N120 S – 1.5 to 2 minutes
- Stop bath (water with and without added vinegar) – 30 seconds
- A 300 – 6 to 10 minutes
- Washing – 8 to 60 minutes
The ‘up to’ values mean that I have tried everything within these ranges and still end up with this fog.
So what should I do?
Thanks in advance, Jens
MirkoBoeddecker
Hi Jens,
First of all, develop for SIGNIFICANTLY longer with A300 or use a more aggressive fixer.
If that doesn’t work, give it a quick bleach with a highly diluted bleach solution.
8–10 minutes is too short for Polywarmton, but sufficient for most other papers.
My personal minimum fixing time – not confirmed by Forte – is 15 minutes in
Adofix 1+6. I haven’t observed any highlight loss.
Best regards,
Mirko
heinrich
Hello Mirko, hello Jens,
Mirko’s fixing times seem rather long to me. Forte recommends
3–4 minutes for standard fixers (e.g. Adofix 1+9) or 1.5–2 minutes for rapid fixers (e.g. Adofix 1+4).
See also:
http://www.forte-photo.net/e/pwfb.htm
@Mirko
: Why are your fixing times so long?
@Jens
: I bathe the Polywarmton in Adofix 1+7 for about 4 minutes. There’s nothing pink about it.
Best regards,
Heinrich
heinrich
Hi Mirko, hi Jens,
I have to revise what I said about the fixing times for Polywarmton. The information provided by Mr Moersch in the neighbouring forum (http://www.phototec.de/frame39.htm see: Problems with sepia toning of Warmton baryta) almost matches Mirko’s. And I’m just going to take Mr Moersch’s word for it for now.
What am I to do now with my prints that are already mounted? Wait until they turn brown? What a nuisance.
Best regards,
Heinrich
cfb_de
Hello Heinrich,
Mirko must be a brave and resilient chap. As a German sales representative for the product (and, admittedly, not a bad advisor either), he’s writing here about how to handle his stuff.
And you don’t believe him.
That doesn’t matter for now; it doesn’t affect your right to ask Wolfgang (who also provides accurate answers and knows an awful lot about the subject).
But the fact that, when faced with identical statements, you tend to believe Wolfgang (who made this statement correctly, but only as the *second* to do so) is a slap in the face for Mirko. Unfair, in my opinion. And inappropriate.
And I’m not even ‘impex-obsessed’ – though I can be tough at times (see parallel forums), I’m always fair. That’s what sets us apart.
You’ll be able to forget about those prints you’ve already developed within the next few years. Or perhaps not. It *might* have been enough during the fixing/washing stage. That’s where the experiment will establish the facts. “In real time”.
Best regards,
Franz
MirkoBoeddecker
Heinrich,
The setting times for Polywarmton have somehow become longer with the batches that have been cast for about two years now.
We have therefore been in discussion with Forte since around that time.
I have suggested on several occasions that the times listed on the internet should be revised, but Forte is reluctant to do so.
We tell all customers who enquire that they should set for longer.
However, as long as Forte does not change its specifications, I cannot print this or write it down anywhere. Otherwise, exactly this confusion will arise, as is the case now.
But as you are now the third person to have specific problems with the A300 and PW combination, I will now amend the text regarding the A300.
As I said, this only applies to PW14. Not to PE.
Regardless of that, I can only advise everyone to constantly review their working methods. Manufacturer’s specifications should always be treated merely as a starting point. You can check the fixing, for example, by applying toning (selenium, sepia, gold). If the toner leaves no stains, nothing will happen later either.
You don’t have to tone all your prints straight away (even if most fine art printers do that ;-), it’s enough to check now and then and then keep your working method consistent.
Underexposure doesn’t have to occur with Adofix 1+7 and 5 minutes. But it can happen! That’s why, to be on the safe side, I leave the PW Baryt in for 15 minutes.
As I said, no loss of detail in the highlights, but anyone who likes extremely finely nuanced highlights will use the fixed gradients anyway.
As for your prints: they may be under-fixed – but they don’t have to be.
That’s certainly not what you wanted to read, is it?
You could try putting a print that hasn’t been mounted yet into selenium toner and see what happens....
Best regards,
Mirko
heinrich
Hi Mirk,
No offence, but I really didn’t believe that 15-minute claim at first – that’s longer than anything I’ve ever read on the subject, at least until recently. When I bought the PW14 (that’s what we’re talking about, isn’t it?) from your shop, nobody mentioned it to me, unfortunately. Oh well, it’s not a big deal; it only affects one really lovely print at the moment, which is now framed on the wall. If it turns brown, I’ll just do it again. The other really good ones were all made with the good old MCC111 from Agfa.
What’s stopping you from putting appropriate processing instructions (stickers) on the packaging for your own brand? I’m thinking of all those innocent under-fixed prints that will start to turn brown over the next few years. Their owners won’t exactly be thrilled. I, for one, am always grateful for such clear warnings and prefer to buy from places where they tell me openly what the product can and cannot do.
A quick question about toning: so, fix first, then rinse thoroughly, and then into the toner (e.g. selenium 1+9). Or can you go straight from the fixer to the toner? I’m not a big fan of toning and have therefore never really looked into it. But I suppose we’ll have to get used to the fact that the Duka process won’t be as stable as it once was in the era of mass production of photographic black-and-white materials.
Best regards,
Heinrich
MirkoBoeddecker
Hello Heinrich,
If we really knew what the problem was, believe me, it would be written down somewhere.
The reality is, however, that we’ve had to carry out more and more fault analysis for various customers who’ve experienced pink fog or spots and couldn’t explain what was causing them.
It then became clear to us relatively quickly: under-fixing.
But why?
When, for example, the Adox Vario Classic fixes out completely in the same fixer, but the PW14 doesn’t.
No one knows exactly why these problems are now occurring for some customers and not for everyone else. Not that I’m trying to imply it’s their own fault or anything like that.
We’re watching, wondering and racking our brains.
To be honest, we’re also groping in the dark here, and the solution is simply a radical one (so to speak, the broad-spectrum antibiotic against under-fixing): fix it for all you’re worth, and that’ll do.
To be on the safe side, there’s also the matter of the well-deserved bleach bath, and then absolutely no under-fixing can be possible at all.
Before toning, you absolutely must rinse thoroughly. The toner sets off an alarm in cases of under-fixing and poor washing – a double check, so to speak.
Alternatively, you can also use Lavaquick and perform brief washing.
Best regards,
Mirko
Gast
Hi Mirco,
Sorry to follow up on this again.
If, for example, I want to test my fixing (and washing) process using toner on a test strip, how should I go about it?
Fix, rinse, leave to dry?
Selenium toner: what dilution, or undiluted – and for how long?
Can Mr Moersch’s MT3 also be used for testing (and again, the question is: how concentrated and for how long)?
Is one drop on the highlights (or better still, the shadows) sufficient?
Thanks
Patrick
MirkoBoeddecker
Hello Patrick,
The toning process shouldn’t be thought of as a ‘test’ in the same way that you might, for example, check for fixer residue in the wash water using a potassium permanganate solution.
That’s why you can’t simply add a ‘drop to the highlights’.
The issue of poorly fixed or washed prints is by no means an isolated case. Entire chapters of books are devoted to it.
So anyone who wants to make a name for themselves as a fine printer in the museum or gallery market has, for as long as anyone can remember, briefly toned their prints in selenium or gold toner at the end.
The dilution is chosen so that no colour shift occurs, but merely to ‘tease’ the blacks a little. This also improves the Dmax.
If the print survives this without developing spots or streaks, then, provided it is stored properly, one can assume it will last a hundred years or more.
If the print shows spots or streaks, the only solution is to reprint it and use a longer fixer and/or wash it for longer, or use Lavaquick.
Incidentally, Lavaquick also contains a component that acts in a similar way to toner, which is why Lavaquick ‘reveals’ earlier on if there is unfixed residual silver in the emulsion.
This isn’t actually a statement from a chemist, though; we discovered this through trial and error and are simply making an educated guess.
So you must fix and rinse thoroughly before toning.
Of course, you don’t need to dry it beforehand, but you must rinse it again after toning.
With a 1+19 dilution in ADOX Selenide, the print takes approx. 1–2 minutes for image stabilisation and 2–3 minutes to increase the Dmax. You shouldn’t leave the image in the toner for longer than that, as the onset of the tonal reversal will then reduce the Dmax again.
Franz can certainly explain this better, but I’ve always found it helpful to think that in this short time, the silver particles are merely coated by the sodium selenide (hence the higher Dmax), and with proper toning, the two bond properly.
Best regards,
Mirko
MirkoBoeddecker
Oh, right: I’ll stick to ADOX Selenide here, as that’s what I use myself and it’s really the only one I can speak about with any authority.
For the other products, I’d have to copy the information off the packet...
But of course you can use any other toner.
Whenever the silver combines with another component – be it gold chloride, copper sulphate or a sulphur compound – any unfixed, undeveloped residual silver would ‘react’ and show spots.
It does this on its own over time. The toner just speeds the process up.
That’s why it works as a “test”.
Best regards,
Mirko
Who is now heading into the darkroom to do exactly that with the fresh samples of the new Polywarmton cast that DHL has just delivered. If there are no spots, we’ll clear the delivery and next week Polywarmton PW14 and PW15 will be back in stock.
Gast
Hi Mirco,
I think I’ve got the hang of the toning process (the technical side, not the chemical) and have been doing it this way for a while now – using Moersch Selenium 1+9, usually for 40–80 seconds to boost the Dmax.
So far, nothing has turned brown or pink, nor has it developed streaks (mostly AGFA MCP).
However, I used to fix for 90 seconds, but now I fix for 120 seconds in Superfix 1+9 (counting sheets until the label is about 80% used up).
As I now have a box of your ADOX Polywarmton RC at home, I’m naturally paying close attention to the recommended fixing time.
Wasn’t the VC Select from Moersch the same (or am I mixing everything up now)?
I didn’t have any problems with that either.
ERGO: If a print survives the selenium toner, it’s OK (greatly simplified)?!
Patrick
MirkoBoeddecker
Patrick,
Yes and yes.
The only thing worth noting is that neither we nor others have ever noticed any extended fixing time with RC/PE.
That only happens with Baryt, and we suspect it’s down to the paper’s high brilliance (very fine-pored surface) and, of course, partly because of the heavier cardboard backing compared to, say, Agfa, Foma or ADOX Nuance.
But that’s just a guess.
Best regards,
Mirko
SamuliSchielke
Speaking of ‘dropping onto the highlights’. Tim Rudman, in his *Master Photographer’s Toning Book* – which I highly recommend and which is sold by FOTOIMPEX – suggests something similar as a test for the presence of residual silver, though using undiluted concentrate.
You should place a drop of undiluted (i.e. not a working solution but the concentrate straight from the bottle) selenium toner on an unexposed area of the print (i.e. the edge). Undiluted selenium toner is a terribly aggressive substance (rubber gloves! safety goggles!) that tones anything containing even a trace of silver. If no stain appears, there is no residual silver. If there is, fix it further. The disadvantage of this method, of course, is that it only works if the image is uniformly under- or over-fixed.
Kind regards,
Samuli
StefanHeymann
About 1.5 years ago, I started this thread here, which was about a pink tinge on RC paper (Polywarmton):
http://www.fotoimpex.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=201
Even when I use freshly prepared Ecofix (fixing time 2 minutes), I still get this pink tinge, which is sometimes more or less pronounced. Am I right in thinking that I need to fix for *much* longer? I’ll never get my prints finished at that rate...
Best regards, Stefan
SimonWeber
So, just because this seems to be causing problems for quite a few people:
I don’t have a pink base colour, but I do have the problem with ridiculously long fixing times (Polywarmton FB Matt). Well, Mirko says to just leave it in for ages; but that’s actually quite annoying in the long run.
If I don’t fix for long enough, I don’t get any fogging, but I do get these weird long streaks or waves… I’ll have a scan of it tomorrow.
Are there any other ideas? E.g. two-bath fixing, Washaid, a strong stop bath to make sure the developer is completely killed? (I’ll give the strong stop bath a go, because here at uni they always just stop with water.)
Or is none of that any use and I just have to stand next to the fixing tray for a quarter of an hour and keep moving...?
Hoping for some tips,
Simon
MirkoBoeddecker
Simon,
There is one foolproof ‘fix’.
Briefly bleach with diluted bleach.
Otherwise, we are still trying to identify why this phenomenon occurs sporadically for some users but not for others.
The trail leads – and I know this may not seem plausible at first glance – to: darkroom light.
The residual silver, which is difficult to fix later, may be exposed in some way by the darkroom light or sensitised in another way, but not enough to appear in the developer; or it may only happen during the stop bath or at the start of the fixing process. It is then difficult to fix but remains invisible, and during washing, toning or, at the latest, after a few years, it starts to discolour.
The bleacher, however, cleans this away thoroughly.
Best regards,
Mirko
SimonWeber
The clue points to – and I know this might not make sense at first glance – the darkroom light.
! Ah, that would make sense – we have that sort of orange-red light at uni. At home, it’s red. I’ve never had any problems with that, but I thought it was down to the stop bath!
So, I’ll have a go with the strong stop bath. Otherwise, I’ll just have to buy some bleach...
Unfortunately, I can’t post the example image right now!
Simon
Wolfgg
By ‘residual silver’, I assume you mean the silver bromide, chloride and, where applicable, iodide that hasn’t been reduced in the developer. To identify this, it should be sufficient to dip a white corner of the finished print or a similarly processed test strip back into paper developer in daylight, just to check. It may well turn grey then.
Regards, Wolfgang
MirkoBoeddecker
But then the image is gone...
In that case, I’d go for a toner. The toner’s also giving the warning.
Best regards,
Mirko
