Gast
I’d like to start working with medium format and am looking for a camera to do so.
What do you think of the Kiev 88 in this context?
Are there perhaps any other options?
I only want to shoot in black and white.
I’d be very grateful for any advice!
Regards, Phil
CPD
Hi Phil,
First off, a couple of questions:
- Do you need interchangeable lenses?
- Does it absolutely have to be an SLR, or would a camera with a viewfinder be an option?
Have a look at eBay auctions. You can even pick up Hasselblads there for next to nothing at the moment – and it doesn’t have to be a Hasselblad.
Regards, CP
Gast
An SLR would be nice, but it doesn’t necessarily need to have interchangeable lenses.
I’ve already had a look at various Hasselblads on eBay; they really are quite cheap by comparison. But ultimately, I’m only on a student budget – which, incidentally, is because I’m a student.
After looking at the Hasselblads, I then came across their Russian ‘counterparts’ and wonder why on earth they’re so much cheaper than the real thing?
Are there any glaring manufacturing defects or anything like that?
If not, that would be a pretty ideal camera, as it’s an SLR that’s also very flexible in terms of focal length.
Regards, Phil
CPD
Hi Phil,
I reckon you’ll get some expert answers about the Kiev here on the forum as a reference. I’ve never actually held one in my hands myself.
You can get twin-lens and folding cameras relatively cheaply. Of course, you won’t have interchangeable lenses (except with the Mamiya twin-lens). If you only want to shoot in black and white, the lens coating isn’t really an issue either. I myself sometimes use lenses of venerable age in my GF – with, in my opinion, good results.
Regards, CP
Gast
Hi!
I can only speak for myself here... I’m a student too and (always) short on cash.... I’ve decided to go for a Mamiya C220 TLR....I haven’t had it for long, but so far I really can’t complain... the first test shots blew me away, just in terms of resolution alone.... interchangeable lenses and it’s cheap to boot (I hardly ever do macro, so the parallax error doesn’t bother me either).....
All in all, the whole medium-format kit (C220, Lunasix 3 light meter and Durst M370 with 6x6 extension) cost me about 170 euros (including postage)... I don’t think you can go far wrong with that :-)
You probably need to be a bit more careful with the Russian stuff... I’ve had a look into it and it’s a bit of a gamble whether you’ll get something good or not....
Cheers
Stefan
Gast
Hello!
I’d definitely steer clear of an unmodified Kiev 88 – it’s simply too risky; on the other hand, one modified by Arax, Wiese or Hartblei is so expensive that you might as well get something else for the money.
You say you only want to shoot black and white – so interchangeable magazines wouldn’t be necessary at all; a Kiev 60 (much more reliable than an 88) or a Pentacon Six TL would be good options, as they’re compatible with the excellent and affordable Carl Zeiss Jena lenses (Flektogon, Biometar, Sonnar).
Further affordable alternatives would be, for example, Mamiya C220 / C330 TLRs with interchangeable lenses; Bronica SQ models are also available relatively cheaply. Also very affordable, but ‘only’ 6x4.5 instead of 6x6 cm format: the Mamiya 645 models.
Of course, you can get a 500 Hasselblad with an 80mm lens relatively cheaply – but additional lenses do cost a fair bit, and if you can’t afford them, you’re much better off with a Rolleiflex, for example (lighter, easier to handle, and cheaper).
What sort of photos do you actually want to take? Unless you’re specifically aiming for architecture and landscape photography, where a wide-angle lens is almost unavoidable, you might find a TLR (which could be a Rolleiflex, but just as easily a cheaper ‘Cord’, Yashica Mat or Flexaret) will do the job; TLRs are ideal for quick, easy photography on the go, without much hassle, yet still delivering maximum quality – actually, every photographer should own one... :blink:
Roman
Gast
If you want to be sure that your photos turn out properly – without overlapping or being ruined by a camera fault – I’d definitely switch to a top-quality Western brand, even if it means spending 30% more. A Kiew is so terribly processed, it’ll just give you nothing but trouble!!! A Pentacon Six has major problems with film advance. A Hasselblad 500C/M or Mamiya is only slightly more expensive, but it’s reliable. Things weren’t all bad in the East German days, but they certainly couldn’t build cameras! Sorry.
Gast
Hello Phil, the decision to go for a Kiev-88 should come at the end of a carefully considered assessment of a wide range of criteria – I just want to share a few, but useful, insights here:
the main reason for switching to medium format is simply the significantly greater technical potential of the film compared to 35mm – but the format advantage only comes into its own if the camera SUPPORTS this advantage TO THE FULLEST. This is precisely where the Kiev-88’s weakness lies; in its standard, off-the-shelf condition, it belongs to the category of so-called ‘banana products’ (matures with the customer…) and lies far beyond the adjustment tolerances permitted for medium format. This applies in particular to the focal-plane shutter (the slit width at short shutter speeds is not constant, leading to significant image defects [‘banding’]), problems with the film pressure plate lead to inaccuracies in film flatness (out of focus), and a poor fit between the magazine and camera body results in the dreaded light leak – although the tolerance issues described here are merely the most common problem areas that directly affect the image.
A good Kiev-88 is a competently maintained, optimally adjusted model which, in the hands of a connoisseur, is capable of photographic excellence (lenses!) and is also ergonomically (size!) a great deal of fun to use – but this Kiev-88, alongside its value, also comes with a commensurate price tag.
Regards
KievUser
Gast
A Kiew is so terribly processed, and it’ll just give you nothing but trouble!!!
...that might apply to an unmodified K88, but definitely not to a K60 (its mechanical design is so simple and robust that hardly anything can go wrong – and if something is out of alignment, even people with two left hands and an old pocket knife can sort it out quite easily.
On the P6 and film overlaps: actually, the 100% foolproof method for avoiding this should be common knowledge by now, but obviously there are still people who don’t know – so here it is again:
http://www.baierfoto.de/Transport.html
It is true, however, that there are also Western medium-format cameras available at relatively affordable prices (particularly from Mamiya, for example, though not in 6x6, and Bronicas are said not to be quite as reliable – though I am expressly not speaking from personal experience here!). An Eastern Bloc camera only makes sense if you’re on a VERY tight budget (students, etc.), but still need interchangeable lenses – in that case, you simply have to accept compromises in terms of ease of use and, above all, weight, but with a bit of research beforehand, you can certainly find reliable cameras suitable for everyday use that can be fitted with good lenses. For some people, it does make a difference whether you spend 350 to 400 euros on a set comprising a camera and wide-angle, standard and telephoto lenses (e.g. a Pentacon Six with CZJ 50/80/180mm), or 600 to 700 (Mamiya 645 with 45/80/150).
Roman
Gast
PS: The typos in my last post are on the house! :blink:
Gast
...and a few more nnnnnnnnnnnnn to keep in stock – a rubbish cheap keyboard – and it’s not even from the former USSR...
Gast
First of all, thank you very much for all your comments! That’s really kind of you!
I’ve just had a look at the Mamiya C220 and C330 – I really like them and they’re even within my budget.
What’s more, they’re compact TLRs that offer the portability Roman described, whilst still allowing for interchangeable lenses.
I’d also like to use the camera for landscape photography, but that shouldn’t be a problem given the range of lenses available.
I think I’ll have a ‘hunt’ on eBay...
Many thanks for now,
Best regards, Philipp
Gast
Hello,
Don’t you try out cameras at all before you buy them?
If you shoot a roll of film through a Kiew 88, you’ll know whether it’s any good. By the way, as a Ukrainian, I’m allowed to say that – the camera comes from Ukraine, not Russia.
I actually think that, of the two, the Zenith 80 is the better Hasselblad copy.
But if it has to be a Mamiya, I don’t need to overtax my German with details.
Oleksander
Gast
Oops, sorry, you’ve got that wrong...
The C-Mamiyas are versatile TLRs because they come with interchangeable lenses, different viewfinders, interchangeable focusing screens, etc. – but they’re not really compact or handy (I’ve got a C220 myself, and it’s not much lighter than a Kiev 60).
By compact and handy TLRs, I actually only meant those with a fixed lens – Rolleiflex and Rolleicord, Yashica Mat, etc. – of course you can take landscape shots with them too, but you’re a bit limited because of the lack of a wide-angle option.
That’s why I wouldn’t advise against the Mamiya C220/C330 – especially for landscape photography, where you’re using a tripod anyway, it’s actually quite well suited (just not as an ‘always-with-you’ camera for spontaneous street shots – I’d been thinking of the other TLRs for that purpose). However, you should be aware that the widest wide-angle lens for the Mamiya is a 55mm (equivalent to about 30 to 35mm in 35mm format), which is not all that easy to find, and usually goes for at least 200–300 euros.
Gast
Hi Phil,
I’d advise against getting an unmodified Kiev 88. I regularly had problems with overlapping images across all four magazines I used. I don’t know if the ‘optimised’ magazines from Brenner, for example, are any good. It was brilliant, of course, to have a film with a different exposure setting for every lighting situation in a separate magazine. I missed having a mirror lock-up; and the Kiev is quite loud when you press the shutter. In any case, I switched to the Mam. C330, bought new 12 years ago. You can get them even cheaper second-hand these days; photography students tend to sell off their C330s once they’ve finished their studies. Unless you’re planning to specialise in macro photography and can do without interchangeable magazines, I’d recommend it. No one can complain about the lenses; I’ve never had to have one repaired yet.
Cheers, Ugo
Gast
Hello,
I simply have to chime in here. I bought a Kiev 88 in 1992 with my first civil service pay cheque. Mind you, it was the kit version, like most people. Since then, I’ve added almost the entire range of lenses. I can say that I shoot about 30 rolls of film a year; at the moment it’s a few less, due to a lack of time. Knowing full well about the ‘quality issues’, I bought a second one so I wouldn’t be left out in the cold if something went wrong. Well, what can I say... My Kiev has since been up in the far north, in the deserts of Morocco and Jordan, and is now in Saudi Arabia. I always take about 10 rolls of film with me. For comparison, I always carry a Leica R7 in 35mm format and shoot exclusively with transparency film alongside black-and-white (exposure tolerances are quite low). All I can say is that the second body is just sitting at home. The camera has never given me any trouble and, apart from my own stupidity, measurement errors, wrong film in the wrong magazine, etc., there have never been any failures. The image spacing isn’t consistent, that’s true, though it probably is with old Orwo films. I realise there are also duds that have never worked. It’s just my experience with the 88.
Regards
Marwan
Gast
P.S. By 'uneven frame spacing', I mean that it’s acceptable enough to frame them without any problems; with the Leica, you can use the spacing as a unit of measurement.
Best regards,
Marwan
Gast
@roman: That’s right... unfortunately, the 55 mm isn’t that easy to find. I’d also like to add that the C220 doesn’t have interchangeable focusing screens... although you can obviously fit the C330 focusing screens without any problems (you just have to pluck up the courage to do it and then check the focus after changing it... but it’s not that bad)...
As for the weight, it doesn’t really put me off... sure, it’s heavier and bigger than my Canon A-1... but it’s not much heavier than my T90 either... it fits easily in my bag to carry around...
Urnes
Hello,
I also thought long and hard before making my decision, and now I wouldn’t be without my C 33. Even though it’s a bit bulky, of course, it’s still easy to handle without a tripod. But the real thrill for me is that, thanks to the bellows focusing, I can get right into the macro range with this camera – something usually only offered by more expensive models. As for servicing, it’s no problem at all to have the seals replaced or get a new pressure spring from Mamiya in Munich. What’s more, the lenses are pretty much flawless; even though the widest angle is only 55 mm, you can still go up to 250 mm. So I reckon you get quite a lot of camera for your money. I’m happy to do without magazine or mirror shutters for that.
Regards, Sven.
Gast
First of all, thanks again for all the replies! They’ve really helped me out a lot.
I’ve always been a big fan of TLR cameras, but I always thought they were limited to just one focal length.
I’d really like a Mamiya C330. Alternatively, depending on the version, model and age, the Mamiya 645 can sometimes be found quite cheaply.
Does anyone know if €298 for a C330 (professional) with a 135 mm (f4.5) lens is too much? The camera is apparently very well looked after and in good working order. At least it still looks really good in the photos.
Are there any weak points with the C330/M645 that I should watch out for?
Regards, Phil
