camerafreak
Mirko,
I’d be interested in Forte Polywarmton or ADOX Classic in roll form; the 30.5 cm width would be ideal for me. Is there anything you can do, given your good connections with the manufacturers?
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Michael
RomanJRohleder
Michael,
That’s a brilliant idea; 30.5 cm × 85 m is exactly the size I’m looking for and need.
I’d be happy with the Croatian ADOX Classic something-or-other as well, depending on the price and availability.
Mirko, what’s the latest? They didn’t rule out selling it the other day, but said they didn’t know “anything specific”.
Thanks,
Roman
MirkoBoeddecker
What do you mean by 'Croatian ADOX Classic something or other'? :)
MirkoBoeddecker
In theory, we can supply rolls, but it’s simply not worth it for a single roll.
And please don’t forget: the ‘brand suppliers’ are happy to sell loose sheets at prices thousands of per cent above production costs. They then sell rolls more cheaply to maximise consumer surplus (meaning that those who use a lot and are willing to pay less get a roll, and in this way they avoid getting caught up in the high-price policy of boxed goods and get the highest price from everyone).
All our prices are based on production costs. That means the price of the paper plus 2–4 EUR for the box/envelope and bag.
So the roll is NOT significantly cheaper because the 2–4 EUR for the box only accounts for 5–10% of a 40 EUR product.
It is therefore not financially worthwhile to buy roll goods – the only incentive to buy would be for those who want to cut the paper themselves for size reasons.
Mirko
cfb_de
Hi Mirko,
I’m sorry, but I can’t help myself now:
> That means the price of the paper plus 2–4 euros for the box/envelope and bag.
And what do you live on then? Please don’t give me any of that ‘we’re playing social security for you artists’ nonsense.
After all, a large part of the packaging effort is eliminated. Cutting a jumbo roll into a few strips is much easier than turning it into individual sheets, counting them, stuffing them into bags and then packing them into a box.
It’s clear that prices have to be based on production costs. Equally, they’re also market-driven due to supply and demand. And that’s the only justification for higher prices on roll goods. Fewer customers want them, so they’re more expensive than they need to be.
By the way, I’d also be interested in PW in 30.5cm x 85m. Fewer running metres is fine by me too. And yes, even though I haven’t ordered for a long time, that doesn’t mean I don’t buy from you or have things brought back for me. Lately, I’ve mostly been having things ‘brought back’. It saves on postage, the hassle of confirming availability (we just buy what’s in stock), and your staff costs for packing, as well as the booking and processing fees.
Suggestion: We organise the market and you make an offer. Then, as with everything in life, we negotiate the price and, if necessary, an order is placed. You’d have the advantage that your purchase quota would be easier to meet, and you might end up in a better position than Uncle Schröer. We would have the advantage of getting the goods for which we are happy to go the extra mile ourselves, and not having to pay for the elimination of pointless external costs.
So here’s the calculation, for which I’ll use your figures and the – now out-of-date – catalogue dated 30 April 2005 as an example. I just want to give an example, not a complete cost breakdown.
A box of ADOX Polywarmtone containing 25 sheets of 30x40 (i.e. 30.5 cm wide) costs almost exactly €26 excluding VAT. That’s 3 square metres. Including the €4 for the film and the box (though the ‘box’ is debatable).
From an 85m-long roll (=25.5m?), I can therefore get 8.5 boxes. Let’s say eight. This makes the roll 7 × 4 = 28 euros cheaper simply by eliminating unnecessary packaging. Just by doing away with the expensive packaging. This does not take into account the savings on packaging costs from sheet cutting.
So that makes a difference of sheet goods=
RomanJRohleder
Mirko,
I’m finding it increasingly difficult to keep the brand names straight. I’ve now consulted the catalogue; I’m talking about the “ADOX Fine Print Vario Classic FB” – a very nice paper, even if you’re initially left in the dark when it comes to filtering.
As for the savings – with fresh MCP, it amounted to a good 40% for me recently. We did have to buy two rolls, but the material was ‘fresh from the warehouse’ and even with one or two baryta rolls, a joint purchase between Michael and me wouldn’t be a problem.
Even if you’re calculating so tightly, the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages – I have just one single emulsion in the cassette for a year or two and don’t have to test a new emulsion with every format, every change of box, or every order.
Two boxes of PW14 of the same size, bought four weeks ago, arrived as two different batches – anyone working with an analyser reacts rather badly to that... at least when the manufacturer delivers something different in tone, sensitisation and contrast behaviour with every batch.
All the best,
Roman
cfb_de
Hi Roman,
Thanks for reminding me, amidst all my number-crunching, of what actually matters to the customer. Two boxes of PW-14 in 13x18, bought at the same time a few days ago, do indeed have two different batch numbers: "4F6113" and "410241". Now, that doesn’t bother me too much with 13x18; but in the case of larger sheets, where recalibration by Trialux immediately costs money, it’s more than a bit of a pain.
This issue would also be completely eliminated with roll film. Which is why I’d even be prepared to accept the cost saving from the lack of packaging and let Mirko earn a bit more per square metre, for all I care. I’m not that bad a buyer when it comes to my hobby.
Best regards,
Franz
MirkoBoeddecker
Franz,
Of course we don’t sell our own paper on at cost price.
I did mention somewhere else that I use these sales to pay the wages.
We only have to sell branded goods at almost cost price because the market price is dictated by others and the suppliers have ‘monopolistically’ sealed off the markets and simply won’t negotiate.
But that’s not really important now, because that wasn’t the point.
My point was to make it clear to you that our PURCHASE PRICE for the paper is not a ‘market price’, but a cost price (plus profit for the manufacturer). In other words, even if you buy a large quantity at once, we can’t really reduce the price much, because the sheet paper is already priced close to the production cost.
Why am I mentioning this again?
Precisely because it’s different with other suppliers, and because customers therefore think: “Ah, the roll paper is so cheap because it’s so much easier to produce.”
Wrong. It is cheaper solely because the brand suppliers charge less per square metre in order to offer price-conscious ‘bulk buyers’ in the more fiercely competitive professional markets a price they are willing to pay.
They can do this because they have more ‘breathing room’ in their calculations.
Look, throughout the entire photography sector, there are machines everywhere that are now operating at only a fraction of their capacity. Once set up, a packaging machine like that would ideally run non-stop for a week cutting 13x18 paper without any staff input. Even in a small factory, that would probably be ten times the combined annual global demand of all manufacturers.
And that’s where the rub lies: setting up the machines.
That costs money. Setting up the machines to produce your two rolls isn’t worth it. Letting the machine set up for 24x30 run for ten seconds longer to cut a further eight boxes of 24x30 paper costs nothing extra.
Therefore, there are no ‘savings’ apart from the elimination of packaging, but there is a very significant cost factor involved in cutting a large roll into smaller rolls. If these are then to be wound onto rolls shorter than a full cast length, we’re talking about two people spending a whole day on the job.
Long story short: if you can muster enough demand for a full large roll (4000 sq m), you’ll get a great price. 20 rolls might just break even, but I can’t have 2 rolls produced. The price would be exorbitant.
It works out cheaper for all of us if, instead of one pack of 24x30, you simply ask for 10 or 20 and we give you a volume discount in return :)
Best regards,
Mirko
MirkoBoeddecker
I’ve just been on the phone with the head of the packaging department.
For rolls of 50 metres or more, there’s no extra cost for packaging or the core.
We can produce this in a reasonably cost-effective way for orders of 10 rolls or more.
Price: approx. 20% less than the sheet version.
Are you interested?
Best regards,
Mirko
cfb_de
Hi Mirko,
Roman, Michael and I will probably each take 85 metres. That leaves seven rolls to sell off. We’ll sort those out amongst the group as well. And if not, then we’ll just leave the rolls as they are.
As for the price, my 185 euros wasn’t too bad, and that was just by taking the cost of the boxes out of the equation :-)
Best regards,
Franz
RomanJRohleder
Mirko,
Thanks a lot, that sounds pretty decent. Let’s keep promoting it for a few weeks; I’m sure we’ll find some more interested parties.
If anyone needs some and just doesn’t know how to store it, a friend of mine has two second-hand roll cutters (1.27 m wide) for sale.
Roman
andreasbrigachtal
Hi Mirko!
You’ve just got the third one available for pre-order! If the deal goes through, I’ll take one! :blink:
I’ll ask around among my friends as well.
Andreas
cfb_de
Hi everyone,
So the list is growing...
- Michael
- Roman
- Franz
- andreasbrigachtal (sorry, but you’re number 4)
- Christian probably wants one too (no final word yet)
- Walter will definitely take one as well (no final word yet)
- the other Roman might be in too? (haven’t asked yet, as shipping might be an issue)
That makes four definite so far, seven including those who are out of focus. We’ll get the other three as well.
I’ll get more updates from a few people in early July as they’re on holiday. Regarding the pricing, it’s somewhere between the gross € amounts you mentioned
Gast
Sorry, Franz, I’m afraid I’ll have to give the ‘other film’ a miss – I’ve still got too much Foma Variant in stock (it’s not meant to keep for very long, after all…), and at the moment I don’t have enough time to enlarge the prints…
Besides, I want to stick to Foma Variant (for ‘quick & dirty’ jobs) and Fomatone (for lith printing and ‘serious’ prints).
Gast
Generally speaking, I’m also interested in paper sold by the roll,
but the question is how large the core of the roll is.
If the paper is wound too tightly, won’t it be difficult to get rid of that twist?
Best regards, Stephan
Gast
Hi everyone,
I’ll take 1 roll (30.5 cm x 85 m, FB Warm, gloss).
Best regards,
Detlef Rehn
P.S. To Michael, Franz and Roman: well done!
cfb_de
Hi everyone,
So far, we’ve got five definite orders, one cancellation, two possibly, and one conditional order.
Mirko, could you please give the manufacturer a ring and ask about the core? Then we might have six customers.
Just to remind everyone who’s interested: the material comes in a width of 30.5 cm. And we need ten rolls as the minimum order quantity. Per roll (including a bit of waste), that’s about 200 sheets of 30x40 or roughly 415 sheets of 20x30. So it’s not such a huge amount that it amounts to a ten-year supply.
Best regards,
Franz
p.s.: @Stephan: With a Versamask, the paper twist doesn’t matter during exposure :P
Gast
That makes five definite so far, one refusal, two possibly, and one conditional acceptance.
I’d also be interested in buying a roll. Not to save money, but because you can finally cut the correct KB widths ‘from the roll’. As we all know, neither 24x30 nor 30x40 have the ‘one true’ aspect ratio.
See you soon... Chris Z.
andreasbrigachtal
Hello everyone!
Bloody hell! That ungrateful fourth one! :o
Thanks a lot! :P
I’ll be away on business until mid-July myself! But I definitely want a roll! Mirko should definitely have my email address! As soon as the confirmation comes through, I’ll place my order by phone like a good boy. I hope postal delivery isn’t a problem as I’m not in Berlin that often!
@ Mirko: Put 20 rolls of Efke 50 on hold for me. I’ll order them straight away. Email: andreas.brigachtal@t-online.de
@ Franz: I don’t have an AF camera, but I don’t get blurry shots! ;)
Good light
Andreas
P.S.: Couldn’t find anyone else for another roll. :(
RomanJRohleder
Stephan,
With PE – as I mentioned before, in my case it’s Agfa MCP – the paper lies as flat as when it’s fresh out of the pack immediately after unwinding and cutting.
The paper has enough adhesion and twist on the roll that it doesn’t unroll once the adhesive strip is removed. Agfa also doesn’t use spool cores. As for the diameter of the shaft on my spool and the roll – I’ve no idea. I don’t open them up anymore either; the roll sits perfectly and doesn’t move on the cones. ,-)
I suspect it’s very similar with Baryt – here too, the paper still has a certain twist in the box, which comes from storage on a roll – after all, during packaging it’s ultimately snipped off the roll.
Counting again:
Michael,
Roman,
Franz,
Andreas,
Christian,
Detlef,
> 6 confirmed.
Stephan and Walter are still on the fence.
> 8 candidates in total.
In case we break the 10-mark, what’s the next level in this pyramid? ,-)
Roman
