Help! Lucky 400 developer?

Gast · 2005-06-13T12:39:20+00:00

;) Hi! Ich bin auf dem s/w Gebiet noch Neuling habe aber inzwischen einige Erfahrungen mit HP5-, FP4-, SFX-, Cube 400c und Tri-X-Filmen gemacht (bevor...

Gast

;) Hi! I’m still a novice when it comes to black-and-white photography, but I’ve now gained some experience with HP5, FP4, SFX, Cube 400c and Tri-X films (my preferred developers are Emofin powder and Rodinal). I’ve since tried out a few Adox and Tura (400) films and am quite happy with them. I now have 12 exposed Lucky SHD 400 rolls and am looking for some feedback on this film in terms of developers. Are there any developers other than D-76 that produce ‘good results’ with this film? Does anyone have any experience? I’d be interested in hearing about development times – just as a guide. So far, I’ve found one recommendation regarding Rodinal: At 1+50 for 14–16 minutes. I read somewhere that Tanol works well for the 100 Lucky. I just don’t know what a stain developer is! Can anyone explain this term to me? Another beginner’s question: I have the Jobo 1500 tank system for developing films. My tank holds two films. When I calculate a developer batch, the instructions are always for one film. With Rodinal, for example, 1+25 for one film for so-and-so many minutes. If I now want to develop two films, do I need to calculate a 1+12.5 batch (the developing tank holds just under 500ml) and use the corresponding time specified for one film? Or should I extend it slightly? If I buy the Jobo extension kit, I can develop a total of 5 films at once. Do I then simply divide the specified dilution of 1+25 by 5 and use the same time as for a single film? What do I need to bear in mind here? With Emofin, it was very simple: 1 litre is enough for 15 35mm films. I prepared 1 litre as per the instructions and then developed 7 films at a time using 500ml in my tank. It worked perfectly and I was always satisfied. Well then, I hope someone can help me. Many thanks in advance Regards Mehmet Cati

CPD

Hi Mehmet, No, you mustn’t change the Rodinal concentration; it stays at 1:50 or 1:25 regardless of how many films you develop. The development time also remains the same. However, there is a certain minimum amount of Rodinal per film that you must use. According to the Rodinal instructions, I believe it is 10ml, but apparently you can go down to 5ml. This minimum amount was once hotly debated in another forum. As Rodinal isn’t expensive anyway, the topic has never particularly interested me. With very high dilutions, you may find that your developing tank is too small for the minimum amount of Rodinal. For example, at 1:200 – to reach the 10ml minimum, you’d need 2 litres of solution. So you’ll need a larger tank, or you’ll have to dilute it less. Regards, CP

Gast

Hi Mehmet, I can’t really advise you on the Rodinal development times, as I use A 49, but if you’re using a 1+25 solution, the calculation works out as follows: 1+25 = 26 parts. 500ml ÷ 26 = 19.2, so roughly 19ml. You’d therefore use 19ml of developer and 481ml of water. The times remain the same when using the developer just once. You do exactly the same when using the large tin. Although I don’t think it’s really easy to tip it out. You just need to be careful if you reduce the developer concentration, for example to 1+50, and then extend the time, to ensure there is still a minimum amount of developer per film. Depending on the developer, this is around 10ml per film, if I remember correctly. Regards, Sven.

Gast

;) Hello everyone! Well, perhaps I didn’t explain myself very clearly. If, for example, I need 19 ml of developer for one roll of film (see Sven’s calculation), then I’d need 38 ml of developer for two rolls, wouldn’t I? Now, I’ve got both rolls in one tank. If, for example, the development time for one film with Rodinal is 20 minutes at 1+50, and 13 minutes at 1+25, then my idea is that I could make a 1+25 solution for 20 minutes using my 500ml can. That would be as if each film had been given a 1+50 solution – to put it in layman’s terms. So, one part developer and fifty parts water. If I now want to develop more films in a single batch, wouldn’t I have to increase the concentration of developer accordingly? Surely I can’t use a 1+25 solution in a 500ml can, regardless of how many films are developed in that batch? Regardless of which developer I use: if the manufacturer specifies a certain concentration (suitable for one film), how should I proceed if I develop not one but two films in the 500ml tank (I always top the tank up to 500ml)? How should I proceed if I develop ? Handling a large tank isn’t really a problem if you roll it rather than tip it. Well then, I hope I’m not being too annoying with all my questions. Regards Mehmet :)

CPD

Feel free to ask! There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. So: for one film you need 10ml of Rodinal concentrate, for two you need 20ml, and so on. Dilute it as Sven describes above and use the development time from the list. You don’t need to extend anything, and the dilution stays the same. For example, your bottle holds 500ml and you want to perform dilution of your Rodinal solution using a ratio of 1:50; 500ml:50=10ml (that would probably be enough for two films, but I think Agfa specifies 10ml as the minimum per film), so you need to use a 1-litre bottle, which will give you 20ml of solution. But as I said, I wouldn’t be too strict about it; the 10ml of concentrate in the half-litre can probably wouldn’t be enough for two films at the same time, NOT one after the other. Rodinal oxidises very quickly and is therefore designed as a single-use developer; besides, the solution is so cheap that you can pour it away with a clear conscience after a single use. Incidentally, with a high dilution and correspondingly large developing tanks, you save yourself a trip to the gym ;) . Regards, CP

CPD

Oh, right, you’ll find quite a bit about Tanol in this forum under the heading ‘Efke R50 in MZB’ Best regards

FrankJBeckmann

Hi, if one egg needs to boil in a pan for three minutes, how long do two eggs need to boil in the pan? Once again, 1:50 is 1:50 and remains 1:50. 10ml of Rodinal to 500ml of liquid gives a concentration of 1:50. 20ml of Rodinal to 500ml of liquid gives what? Yes, exactly, that gives 1:25, not 1:50, regardless of whether there is one film in it, two films in it, or no film in it at all. This means that with a minimum quantity of 10ml Rodinal per film in a Jobo 1520, you can only develop one film at a time. If you want to develop two films simultaneously in a Jobo 1520 at a dilution of 1:50, then there are only 5ml of Rodinal per film. But that works too. If a Jobo 1520 is loaded with just one 35mm film, and the reel sits right at the bottom of the spindle tube (as it should always be), then it does not always need to be filled with 500ml. It is sufficient for the reel to be completely covered by the liquid. That amounts to 250ml. If you rotate the can, different minimum quantities apply. These are printed on the can. However, this is only the minimum amount of liquid required to fully wet the film. It does not indicate how much developer the film needs to be developed. You now have two quantities to consider. Firstly, the minimum amount of liquid the can requires, and secondly, the minimum amount of developer the film requires. The higher of the two values is always the correct one. Here are two more examples for those who find it a bit tricky to grasp: The safe minimum amount of Rodinal per film is 10ml. With a dilution of 1:50 (which is the same as 1+49), you end up with 500ml of developer. A roll of film in the tank needs at least 250ml of liquid to be completely submerged. 500ml is more than 250ml, so you must use 500ml. A film requires at least 100ml of A49 to be fully developed. At a dilution of 1+1 (which is the same as 1:2), this gives you 200ml. A roll of film in the canister requires at least 250ml of liquid to be fully submerged. 200ml is less than 250ml, so you must use 250ml. This means that with a dilution of 1+1, you must use 125ml of A49. There are two ways to specify the dilution: one using ‘:’ and one using ‘+’. ‘:’ means topping up the specified amount to the total volume. So 1:50 means taking one part developer and then adding enough water to reach 50 times the volume. ‘+’ means adding the volumes together. So, for a 1+1 dilution, you need to add 100ml of water to 100ml of developer. You shouldn’t agitate Rodinal. It’s one of the few developers where it makes a difference whether you tilt or agitate. Bye Frank

FrankJBeckmann

Hi, I’d like to say that Tanol is a highly recommended developer. The negatives have the same level of sharpness as those developed with Rodinal, but have a much finer grain. When a film is developed in Tanol, the gelatin changes colour depending on the amount of developed silver. This means that the colouring is strongest in the highlights, which reduces the grain in the bright sky areas of the photos. You can find further information about Tanol on Wolfgang Moersch’s website: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/index.php Mr Moersch is also very friendly and helpful on the phone. Tanol has now become my standard developer. However, it should be noted that films in Tanol (as with most other developers) do not achieve the speed promised by the manufacturer. The Lucky SDH 400 achieves 250 ASA in Tanol. Bye Frank

Gast

Wow.... First of all, many thanks for all the quick replies. I’ve probably been working on the wrong assumption. The way Frank describes it, with the egg ;-)), it’s different from what I thought. But at the risk of being a nuisance.... : I just thought that the chemical (aminophenol in the case of Rodinal. I’ve just had a look in the Rodinal instructions) reacts with the silver bromide in the film. The silver bromide is reduced to silver (at the sites containing silver nuclei). That’s where the chemical is consumed. So I just thought that if one film needs a certain ‘number of molecules’ for this process, two films would need twice as many (to put it simply). >>Once again, 1:50 is 1:50 and remains 1:50. 10ml of Rodinal to 500ml of liquid gives a concentration of 1:50. 20ml of Rodinal to 500ml of liquid gives what? Yes, exactly, that gives 1:25, not 1:50, regardless of whether one film is in it or two films are in it, or whether there is no film in it at all. This means that with a minimum of 10ml of Rodinal per film in a Jobo 1520, you can only develop one film at a time. If you want to develop two films simultaneously in a Jobo 1520 at a dilution of 1:50, then there are only 5ml of Rodinal per film. But that works too. << Yes, that’s clear enough! So that also means that with a 1+25 dilution, there’s twice as much Rodinal in there as with a 1+50 dilution. That’s why I can develop two films. If I now want to develop five (at the same time), I need 50ml of Rodinal (10ml per film). (The 10ml bit isn’t in the Rodinal instructions. The calculation works as Sven described, and you end up with 19ml of concentrate per film) You need less for agitation. The calculations above were just examples. The reason I’ve always used just under 500ml of liquid in total for one film is that I once read that air bubbles can form quickly and it’s better to have the container full of liquid when tilting it. No idea if that’s true. Thanks for the tip that you shouldn’t agitate Rodinal! Up until now, I’ve always just tilted it. I thought that if I were to get an extension, a larger can would be easier to handle when curling it. I’ve found some interesting information here on the forum regarding Tanol (what a stain is, etc.). Thanks. I’ve also found the Moersch website in the meantime. Thanks for the tip! >> Tanol has now become my standard developer. However, it’s worth noting that films in Tanol (as with most other developers) don’t deliver the speed promised by the manufacturer. The Lucky SDH 400 only reaches 250 ASA in Tanol. << Aaargh..., now the sensitivity issue is raising new questions. What do I do with my Luckys exposed at ISO 400 if I want to try Tanol? Probably better to stick with the d-76 specified on the Lucky packaging after all. Regards and thanks Mehmet

CPD

Hello Frank, There are very conflicting views on agitating Rodinal. In *Schwarzweiss Magazin* magazine, a Mr Jangowski once tested various developers, including Rodinal at different dilutions, and on one occasion also agitated it. The differences were apparently marginal, supposedly even with different dilutions, but this does NOT match my own experience. Incidentally, I still agitate, sometimes with strong dilutions and finally with near-stop development. It may well be that a bit of superstition plays a part here, but so far this hasn’t done any harm to my films. The test methods (image with normal contrast range) have already been criticised on the Phototec forum. But actually, it’s clear that you get almost identical results with suitable developers – it’s all about ‘fine-tuning’. I’ll be testing Tanol extensively soon; what I’ve heard about it so far has really piqued my curiosity. Regards, CP

FrankJBeckmann

Hi, The minimum amount of developer required is calculated based on the ‘number of molecules’, as you call it. The dilution, on the other hand, also affects the shadow detail and contrast of the developed image. With Tanol, your already exposed negatives won’t turn out perfectly. You can then expose your next films a bit more strongly. You can develop your films in Rodinal. Bye Frank

CPD

Hi Mehmet, Your Lucky film will also have a sensitivity of 2–3 DIN lower in Rodinal. The manufacturer’s specifications on the film boxes should generally be taken with a pinch of salt. There’s simply no getting round having to experiment yourself, as factors such as the type of enlarger you use, your developing technique, your lens and your personal taste, among many others, all come into play. Try using half the recommended speed and reduce the development time by 25% – that will get you a bit closer to the right result and make enlarging the prints much less stressful. – But do give it a go; it’s good fun. Regards, CP

FrankJBeckmann

Hi, There’s a lot to learn from Martin, but he’s not always without his critics. A lot depends on personal taste and what’s in the picture. Bye Frank

MehmetCati

Hello there, >> The required minimum amount of developer is calculated based on the ‘number of molecules’, as you call it. The dilution, on the other hand, also affects the shadow detail and contrast of the developed image. << Oops, I didn’t know that at all! Up until now, I’ve always stuck to standard values and experimented a bit with development times. I was also aware of the influence of agitation etc., but the effect of dilution... >> Your Lucky will also have 2-3 DIN less in Rodinal. The manufacturer’s specifications on the film boxes should usually be taken with a pinch of salt. You simply can’t avoid experimenting yourself, as factors such as the type of enlarger you use, your development rhythm, your lens and also your personal taste, among many others, all come into play. Try using half the recommended speed and reduce the development time by 25% – that’ll get you a bit closer to the right result and make enlarging the prints much less stressful. – But do give it a go; it’s fun, after all. << I realise you have to experiment. But I always need some sort of starting point to work from. I’m simply too ‘new’ to black-and-white photography and therefore too unsure of myself. So I just prefer to listen to a few experiences from others and also simply take manufacturers’ guidelines on board. But experimenting is also so much fun that it’s one of the reasons why I’ve been shooting 99% black-and-white since around September 2004. >> A lot depends on personal taste and the subject matter. << Undoubtedly! I’d ordered my first rolls of Lucky here at FOTOIMPEX because I’d read that it tends to overexpose and doesn’t render different colours as grey tones. I thought that was brilliant and just wanted to give it a go. Then I went straight on holiday to Tuscany and didn’t have a chance to do a few ‘tests’ with this film beforehand. The stated film characteristics ‘captivated’ me so much that I took a whole lot of landscape shots and also pictures of towns with their narrow streets using the Lucky. I’m curious to see how they’ve turned out. First, though, I think I’ll develop my Turas, Cubes and SFXs and only then get started on the Luckys. I’ve simply gained more practical experience with the ones mentioned above. Okay, thanks again so much for your help! Regards Mehmet

MehmetCati

Hi! For anyone interested in Lucky: I asked Tetenal if they could provide development times for Emofin powder for the Lucky 400 NEW, or for another of their developers. Here is their reply, in case anyone is interested: >> Dear Mr Cati, We do not have any development times for Lucky films, neither for Emofin nor for any other developer from our range. In our opinion, the development time should be between 4 and 5 minutes. If you work with these times, you should check whether you achieve a gradient of 2–3. If you need a gradient of 4, the time should be extended; if you are at 1, the time must be shortened. Kind regards, TETENAL AG & CO. KG Walter Buddelmann Technical Service Tel.: ++ 49 (0) 40 - 521 45 273 Fax: ++ 49 (0) 40 - 521 45 132 mailto:walter.buddelmann@tetenal.com http://www.tetenal.com << Well then! Regards Lucky Mehmet

FrankJBeckmann

Hi, Just a quick note: Tura’s packs contain Agfa film. If you’re experimenting with Tanol, I’d recommend FP4+ (80 ISO) and HP5+ (200 ISO). Bye Frank

MehmetCati

Hi! Yes, the Tura P 400 is probably the equivalent of the Agfa APX 400. That’s what it says in the FOTOIMPEX catalogue, too. Thanks for the tip about Tanol. I’ll give it a go and perform an exposure using the HP5 at 200 ISO. Up until now, I’ve always been a big fan of the combination of Emofin powder and HP5. I’m really looking forward to trying Tanol. In the meantime, I’ve replaced the HP5 with the equivalent ADOX CHM. It’s supposed to be the same film. How many rolls of film can you actually develop with 200ml of Tanol? Regards Mehmet

FrankJBeckmann

Hi, Emofin boosts the film’s speed and produces very fine grain results. However, the images aren’t stunningly sharp. Tanol doesn’t increase the film’s speed as much and doesn’t balance the exposure as effectively, but the negatives are incredibly sharp, whilst still being very fine grain and rich in detail. A 35mm film requires at least 3ml of each of the two concentrates. This means you can develop 33 films with the pack. Bye Frank

MehmetCati

Hi!

>> Tanol doesn’t bring out as much speed from the film and doesn’t balance it out as much, but the negatives are incredibly sharp, with a very fine grain and rich in detail. A 35mm film requires at least 3ml of each of the two concentrates. This means you can develop 33 films with the pack. <<

Thanks for the info. Regards M.C.

Gast

Oh, that’s obvious! So that also means that a 1+25 solution contains twice as much Rodinal as a 1+50 solution. That’s why I can develop two films. If I now want to develop five (at the same time), I need 50ml of Rodinal (10ml per film). (The 10ml figure isn’t in the Rodinal instructions. The calculation works as Sven described, and you end up with 19ml of concentrate per film)

Hello Mehmet, according to my calculation, you end up with 19ml for a 500ml batch; whether you put one or two films in the tank doesn’t matter with that amount. It only becomes relevant if you fall below the minimum quantity due to high dilution. Normally, the dilution for a developer is specified so that it is sufficient. However, particularly with Rodinal or HC-110, you can increase the dilution if you are aiming for a specific result; in that case, you must pay attention to the minimum quantity, which is not specified, and rely on the empirical values that are circulating. You need a certain amount to trigger the reaction. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be possible to reuse the developer multiple times by extending the development time. Regards, Sven.