Gast
You can now buy 100 grams of silver nitrate on eBay for use in making high-quality
photographic paper, for example.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ssPageName=WDVW
Good luck!
cfb_de
Hello "Herold35",
Since advertising eBay auctions seems to be becoming something of a trend here, and given that I am, as you know, a full-time pig and a part-time hazardous materials assessor, I’d like to add a few points to your (?) “disclaimer” regarding the alleged complete non-toxicity of silver nitrate.
The short version can be found at the very bottom.
Firstly: the wording of this postscript gives the uninformed reader the impression that this is a completely harmless chemical. But that is not true!
(And that is why, as a reasonably knowledgeable reader, I was rather taken aback.)
I would like to add the following:
- According to hazardous substance labelling, silver nitrate must be labelled with “C” (corrosive) and “N” (dangerous for the environment). This does not appear to be the case with the product on offer, which is evidently homemade. This constitutes a legal violation, as does the marketing of homemade substances without the relevant official trading licence.
The latter is only granted once the relevant authority has been provided with evidence (!), including relevant expertise, storage facilities, customer instruction and much more (a mere “plausible assurance” is not sufficient). Until then, even “Paule’s one-off eBay sale” is *a criminal offence*! This is because it involves the placing on the market of hazardous substances.
- R/S phrases: These were criminally omitted. I am rectifying this here:
- R 34-50/53: "Causes chemical burns", "Very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment"
- S (1,2)-26-45-60-61: "Keep under lock and key", "Keep out of the reach of children", "In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice", "In case of accident or if you feel unwell, seek medical advice immediately (show this label where possible)", "Dispose of this material and its container as hazardous waste", "Avoid release into the environment. Obtain special instructions/refer to safety data sheet"
- Furthermore, the plastic container intended for dispatch must not be more than five years old. Has this been checked? Can this be verified? Otherwise, it must not be dispatched.
- In the case of a light-coloured, non-airtight container, stating a "best-before date" is nonsense. If it gets damp, add a bit of light and that’s the end of the silver ions inside. So the offer is also factually incorrect.
- Apparently, neither the CAS/EINECS number nor the R/S phrases are printed on the label (the former would be a great help to an ophthalmologist in preserving vision), and a safety data sheet does not appear to be included either. Instead, there are pages of drivel about alleged harmlessness and use in homeopathy. It makes me shudder.
- Furthermore, I wonder how, in the case of trade (and German legislation makes no distinction between ‘private’ and ‘commercial’ here) via eBay, it is ensured that the buyer possesses the necessary expertise. This is, in fact, one of the seller’s obligations, and the seller is liable for this under the law.
The seller must ensure, and provide proof of, that the buyer is sufficiently knowledgeable regarding
- the controlled storage of the chemical
- the safety-oriented design of the workplace
- the procurement and use of suitable protective equipment that complies with regulations
- knowledge of the necessary measures in the event of accidental spillage or release
- safe and environmentally sound disposal of hazardous substances and residues
The buyer must confirm this in writing and must therefore be at least of legal age.
I am seriously considering reporting such trading practices following a spontaneous inspection of the premises, and I *strongly* recommend that the seller familiarise themselves with the ChemG (Chemicals Act), the ChemVerbotsVO (Chemicals Prohibition Ordinance) and other guidelines under German/European hazardous substances legislation. Ultimately, I have little desire to have to shut down company laboratories only to then see such outrageous things on eBay as part of everyday business.
In short:
The item on offer *does not* comply with eBay’s listing conditions, because selling it in this form is *prohibited*! The seller is acting unlawfully and is liable to prosecution in the current form of the listing!
Yours faithfully,
Franz S. Borgerding
Gast
Hi Franz,
I don’t think the spammer will be checking back here. I reckon only an email sent to him, or to eBay, or to both, will reach the right person.
Best regards, Stefan
cfb_de
Hi Stefan,
I’ve already taken the liberty :-)
Best regards,
Franz
Gast
Hi Stefan,
I’ve already taken the liberty :-)
Best regards,
Franz
Doesn’t seem to bother anyone. The auction is still running. <_<
cfb_de
The notification too. The Trade Licensing Office is very helpful in this regard.
Best regards,
Franz
MirkoBoeddecker
Quite apart from the fact that you can’t make photographic paper with pure silver nitrate alone, let alone ‘high-quality’ paper……
Of all the ingredients, silver nitrate is actually the easiest to get hold of.
It gets much more difficult when it comes to the Sensitizer, the gelatin and the stabilizers.
And last but not least, the evenness of the coating and the drying quality are crucial.
Well, maybe this stuff really is good for treating warts, as the sales text claims :-)
Best regards,
Mirko
cfb_de
Hello Mirko,
Everything you’ve written about paper production is correct (I’d be surprised if it weren’t :-), but my main point was that the chemical trade is subject to clear legal regulations, and for good reason.
Even in chemistry sets (which have always been the source of the most unpleasant near-misses), the potassium permanganate is so heavily inhibited with manganese dioxide that you can hardly do anything with it.
Perhaps this stuff really is, as the sales text claims, good for treating warts :-)
In fact, the stuff is used for that purpose and, in pen-shaped form, is found as ‘Hülsenstein’ in the medicine cabinets of respectable country doctors. As a powder, targeted application is extremely difficult, which is why the product isn’t even suitable for that (besides, it’s borderline in terms of the relevant medical device regulations).
Be that as it may, either the authorities or eBay have obviously taken action. Perhaps the seller themselves did too.
Best regards,
Franz
Gast
Hi Franz,
Just out of curiosity, is it the 'home bottling' or simply the sale that’s a criminal offence?
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...7517979954&rd=1
[/QUOTE]Ultimately, I really don’t fancy having to shut down commercial laboratories only to then see such outrageous things on eBay as part of everyday business.
I can understand that. It’s exactly the same when, as a ‘diligent amateur’, you go to great lengths to stay within the law, only to read that the stuff is best left on your muesli.
Regards
Martin
cfb_de
Hello Martin,
It concerns both. ‘Home bottling’ for the purpose of sale already falls under ‘manufacture’, whilst the sale itself falls under ‘placing on the market’. The former requires authorisation for health and safety reasons, whilst the latter requires authorisation because, under the Chemicals Act, the placing on the market of hazardous substances is simply prohibited unless one has the necessary permission to do so.
Hazardous substances within the meaning of the ChemG are all substances that are
1. explosive,
2. oxidising,
3. highly flammable,
4. highly combustible,
5. flammable,
6. very toxic,
7. toxic,
8. harmful to health,
9. corrosive,
10. irritant,
11. sensitising,
12. carcinogenic,
13. toxic to reproduction,
14. mutagenic or
15. hazardous to the environment;
the hazardous properties of ionising radiation are excluded.
Furthermore, for certain hazardous substances, there is not only a restriction on who may supply them, but also a clear restriction on their purchase. For example, as a private individual, you are no longer permitted to buy potassium dichromate.
It follows inevitably from the above definition of a hazardous substance that the sale of silver nitrate (and many other chemicals) via eBay without the appropriate authorisation is not permitted. As eBay is apparently not concerned about this, these legal violations unfortunately continue to take place and endanger unsuspecting members of the public. I do not find this amusing in the slightest, nor can I accept it.
Further reading: ChemG, ChemVerbotsV (both available online via:
Gesetze online) as well as TA Luft, TA Siedlungsabwässer, the Workplace Ordinance and other regulations.
Best regards,
Franz
JUTTA
:( Hi everyone,
Finally, someone who’s doing something about it!!!!!!
I’ve often wondered, “Isn’t that illegal?”
Yet more and more people are getting the idea to auction this stuff on eBay, and in huge quantities!
Have a look at these pages on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ssPageName=WDVW
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ssPageName=WDVW
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ssPageName=WDVW
– you’ll probably be blown away.
Sorry, but trading in silver nitrate really does seem to have become quite the trend.
Is all this actually illegal?
Best regards,
Jutta
Gast
Franz,
Just asking, in the simplest terms: what health risks does silver nitrate actually pose?
Apart from the fact that it’s a criminal offence under the Chemicals Act (ChemG) in conjunction with the Chemicals Ordinance (ChemVO).
Roland
Gast
Unless you actually eat it, it seems to be ‘merely’ harmful,
but in any well-stocked chemist’s you can find products that are at least as
dangerous (e.g. drain cleaners containing sodium hydroxide) and which are sold
by the pound.
cfb_de
Hi Roland,
It’s all in my first post, really :-)
Silver nitrate is soluble (even in its solid form!), which is why I didn’t really want to have the dust lying around in the kitchen. Furthermore, it is toxic to micro-organisms, which is why it has absolutely no place in the waste water (like all silver ions – that’s why you mustn’t pour untreated fixer down the drain either), as it can reliably destroy the biological stage of the sewage treatment plant.
Incidentally, it has an oxidising effect and, upon contact with certain solvents, causes a burning sensation.
There is a huge difference between household products (which have thankfully become much safer in recent years: Domestos has been chlorine-free for a long time) and chemicals: with toilet cleaner, the average person knows that it is harmful and unhealthy. With a chemical sold without adequate information, the customer does not necessarily know this. And that is why its sale is regulated; the customer must demonstrate their knowledge to the seller. If the seller turns a blind eye to this, they are acting unlawfully.
Best regards,
Franz
Gast
Hi,
Just to add to what Franz said:...the Beetle doesn’t necessarily know that...especially when the bay is mainly full of warts, homeopaths and drinking water disinfectants.
But seriously, anyone of us who takes on the task of producing ‘high-quality photographic paper’ isn’t going to spend the few pennies they might have saved here on the risk of ‘really great stuff, even though as a private individual I’ve no idea and can’t offer any guarantee’. From a botched result to something even worse.
I really only use eBay for things that are risk-free/cheap (in more ways than just being non-hazardous goods).
B) And where it would have been worth it, the search engine unfortunately doesn’t return any results for gold chloride for Nelson toner :( (Caution: satire)
Regards
Martin
Gast
B) But to be honest, I think that in cases like this,
eBay in particular should take responsibility for removing such bids and others;
after all, not everyone who quickly lists something online is familiar with all the legal intricacies,
and in fact probably very few are – so you can’t
simply treat everyone as a criminal. :(
But anyway: anyone who takes the time to have a browse on eBay will still find all sorts of
things that are prohibited, but anyone who tries to stop this will probably be surprised at the
resistance they encounter; after all, eBay as a public limited company now generates billions in turnover and
anyone who gets in the way isn’t exactly welcome!
Regards,
Frank
Gast
Well, that’s just great,
using that logic, we might as well say that the Mafia-run brothel next door can sell the goods cheaper because it’s funded through completely different channels, so we’ll all buy from there.
Without giving Mirko another chance to write up ‘Germany is rubbish for specialist and independent retailers’ in three A4 pages, I believe that tolerating this (both on eBay and on the seller’s site) would be against all our interests.
As for the responsibility of the marketplace and the seller: eBay will inevitably accept it if they’re constantly reminded of it. (Otherwise there’d be a ‘child pornography’ category there too; after all, it’s eBay, not the Salvation Army).
And no one is going to defend a seller offering ‘Attic find: 49 hand grenades from the World War, prototype worked’ by saying ‘he couldn’t possibly know’. It’s a vicious circle: anyone who puts dangerous substances on the market takes on the responsibility of ensuring that the recipient knows they are dangerous.
Conversely: the eBay sellers mentioned either have:
- goods from third parties who have acted just as negligently and criminally.
- obtained the items from third parties who, in accordance with regulations, ensured that the sellers knew what they were buying, and these sellers are now knowingly acting irresponsibly and criminally.
- stolen the items (in which case there is no proof of expertise) and putting them on eBay is proof of stupidity (I suggest a Darwin Award).
-Stuff that’s been found (ditto). Then you ask yourself, should such things really be left lying around unguarded and ownerless? And is it responsible to flog off everything you find without bothering to check what it is? (see above)
Regards
Martin
Gast
Hi Max,
if it were as you say, such listings wouldn’t keep
popping up on eBay time and time again, and many are probably
even sold straight away via ‘Buy It Now’ without
anyone noticing. It’s all down to eBay’s automated sales mechanism!
I took the trouble to search for more illegal auctions
and, as someone with a bit of knowledge of chemistry, my eyes literally
my eyes nearly popped out of my head :( and some of these auctions run their course for 10 days without a care in the world
(the duration is always stated) without eBay giving a hoot about it in the slightest. B)
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ssPageName=WD4V
(Congo red seems to be toxic, or even carcinogenic, or both
but Franz definitely knows for sure.)
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...ssPageName=WD4V
Barium chloride is deadly poisonous, as is water-soluble barium compound!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...7518111818&rd=1
(Methanol: poisonous – causes blindness, also good for adulterating wine with,
– 5 litres of it would certainly be enough to kill many people)
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...7516523172&rd=1
(Very well suited for purifying drugs; I think that’s why it was
banned some time ago)
Regards
Frank
Gast
Hi Frank,
I wrote "if".
And I stand by that: no one is innocent just because you let them be.
Best regards
Martin
Gast
Hi Martin, (apologies for getting your name wrong earlier)
Back to the Congo red:
The supplier quotes €1.30 for postage,
which means they’re sending a carcinogenic/toxic, dusty substance
by post – so when I see something like that, I certainly wouldn’t
want to be a postman, and silver nitrate seems downright harmless by comparison!
Best regards,
Frank
