Tammo
I’ve just made some prints on Adox Fine Print Warm-Tone Baryta paper. So far, so good, but when I went to press the prints to a matt finish, I found that the top layer was sticking to the cloth, so I could only remove them by force :(. If I dry the prints to a high-gloss finish, they dry perfectly normally without sticking to the high-gloss film or anywhere else. The previous batch could be pressed to a matt finish without any further problems. So what can I do? I want my pictures to be matt, not high-gloss. For now, I’ve pressed all the pictures to a high-gloss finish because I wanted them to be dry, but they all look a bit posh :D.
heinrich
Hello,
The reason for the paper sticking together is that the drying temperature is too high. Apparently, the gelatin in ADOX paper has a lower melting point than other types of paper. I had the same problem when drying test strips. Lowering the temperature to around 40 degrees helped.
Depending on the water content, household gelatine has a melting point of between 34 and 45 degrees. When I first started developing black-and-white photos, I was quite surprised to find that some types of baryta paper can be dried at over 50 degrees.
During high-gloss drying, the gelatin cannot stick; it adheres very poorly to metal. The heat causes the water content to decrease constantly and the melting point to rise. The rather patchy results indicate uneven curing; remedies here include a) a lower temperature and b) pre-treatment with wetting agents such as Glanzol (no longer manufactured), Mirasol or Adoflo.
Best regards,
Heinrich
Tammo
Thanks for the tips, but I can’t adjust the temperature as I have an older model. It’s worked fine up until now; it’s only with this new batch that this problem has cropped up :( I’ll have a go at adjusting the temperature by unplugging it.
Gast
Hi Tammo,
ADOX Warmton has only been available under that name for a short while,
are you perhaps confusing it with Forte Polywarmton?
Forte and ADOX are not the same, and Forte PW will continue to be available.
Best regards, Stephan
Tammo
No, ADOX used to be called Classic-Arts. The paper is still the same, though; it’s just that the backing has become thinner.
heinrich
Hello,
Of course, not having a temperature control is a bit of a nuisance. Instead of unplugging the machine, placing a thick piece of matboard under the photo might help; this should lower the surface temperature, but it only makes sense if you can adjust – i.e. reduce – the fabric tension, otherwise the fabric will leave a pattern imprinted in the gelatin.
Best regards,
Heinrich
Tammo
I’ll give that cardboard thing a go. Thanks for the tip ;)
cfb_de
Hi Tammo,
I also use an ancient iron without a thermostat, and for years I’ve had absolutely no problems controlling the temperature by plugging it in and unplugging it. You just have to stand by it.
Unplug it just before the iron gets too hot, and plug it back in when the temperature drops below lukewarm. It takes about fifteen minutes for a 20x30 cm cloth to dry against the drying cloth.
And I very rarely find anything stuck to it, though that’s probably also because my drying cloth only sees the inside of the washing machine once in a blue moon.
Best regards,
Franz
Gast
Guys, never heard of power strips with an on/off switch...? ;)
cfb_de
Roman,
I can’t really fit anything else into my kitchen, which is already quite small. But you’re right: I’ve fitted a nice switch into the cable of my iron. It’s probably the only technical improvement made to it since 1950.
Best regards,
Franz
Tammo
Right, I’ve just tried pressing the pictures again, after wetting them, of course. It’s not down to the temperature of my press, as the pictures stick to the linen cloth even when wet at 30°C ;) . I then tried pressing the pictures cold, and they stick using this method too. So it’s definitely not the temperature, but the changed surface coating. Just as an aside, with the ‘old’ batch, pressing wasn’t a problem at all, no matter how warm it was :(
Gast
Hello,
Why not try using a hat bath?
Roland
heinrich
... does the stuff stick at 30 degrees too? That would be a job for Mirko; perhaps he can say something about it.
My test strips don’t stick at <=40°C, but the press’s drying cloth is also very, very loose (I sewed it myself, just for test strips).
Using a guard in the fixer would be an alternative, though that’s supposed to prolong the rinsing process; Mirko might know more about that too. Otherwise, air-dry it; that gives a semi-matt or semi-glossy finish. Then press it well; the best way to do this is to press the prints between two smooth chipboard sheets held together with screw clamps. ADOX Warmton needs plenty of pressure to lie flat again – much more than other types of paper.
Baryta is a hell of a lot of work, but it looks better in the end.
Best regards,
Heinrich
Tammo
"My test strips don't stick at temperatures of 40°C or below"
When did you order the paper? That was always the case for me too :( I used to air-dry it for years, but I bought a press specifically so it would be quicker and I wouldn’t have to live in a mess for a week. I really can’t imagine that’s what the inventor had in mind. It’s simply down to quality issues with the paper ;)
MirkoBoeddecker
If a baryta paper sticks to the cloth of a hot press, one cannot speak of ‘quality defects’. To do so, a quality standard would first have to be defined that takes all parameters into account.
And since photochemistry is, unfortunately, more voodoo than science, I find it hard to believe that anyone would draw up a standard guaranteeing any particular properties of a paper after it has been processed using third-party chemicals :-)
But that’s just a side note.
All PW14 that has been delivered over the last two months (with the exception of 18x24 – we still have some old stock left of that) comes from the new Forte production line and, as we bought enough to last six months, it is all from the same batch.
As mentioned several times before, the old 330–350g base paper is unfortunately a thing of the past – the coating machine has since been scrapped and the old bleaching process discontinued.
In terms of tonal range, the new, slightly thinner base paper is better than the old one.
The fact that it absorbs less water and offers less thermal protection between an 80-degree hot drying plate and the cloth is explained by its reduced thickness.
Consequently, differences in drying behaviour may occur.
We have set our press here to 80 degrees. I must admit, however, that our lab always air-dries overnight and then briefly presses the paper flat the next morning. We’ve always done it this way for reasons of workflow and efficiency.
If the weather at the weekend isn’t as lovely as it is right now, I’ll do a few ‘drying tests’ in the lab.
Best regards,
Mirko
PS: ADOX is not the same as Forte. That’s not quite right. I said at some point in the past that we have different things produced in different places, increasingly to our own specifications, and so ADOX is not NECESSARILY the same as Forte. In the case of Polywarmton, however, that is not the case. That is, after all, our oldest Forte product and remains as it is.
Gast
Hello,
I think you mean ‘Classic Arts Warmton FB’ here, not ‘Polygrade Warmton FB’, as the reference to Classic Arts suggests it was Efke Emaks and not Forte Polywarmtone, or am I mistaken?
But I’ve long since lost track of all your paper names, nor do I think it’s particularly good for sales to keep coming up with new names all the time; that might work in the US, but it certainly doesn’t suit German consumer behaviour.
Roland
PS: If a glossy paper sticks to the cloth at 30°C – then that’s not a quality defect – right – that’s a bad joke.
MirkoBoeddecker
It is almost certainly the Polygrade Warmton, as a comparison has been made with later batches and because the Classic Arts Warmton FB with a fixed gradient was not previously available in this form.
We had to move away from the Classic brand name because, after years of legal proceedings, the Patent Office ultimately refused to grant us the trademark registration.
Furthermore, the new PW is genuinely a different paper due to the different base material. One could certainly argue which is the better approach.
To resell a different paper without labelling it, in exactly the same packaging with exactly the same name, and then have the customer wonder why the base is thinner and the whites are different, or to use a new name with a new description.
Incidentally, this is not a constant changing of names but a one-off move away from Classic towards ADOX as the umbrella brand.
As for the surface of the paper, it may also be due to the fact that the newly delivered paper is exceptionally fresh.
It took Forte a long time to be able to deliver again, and then, as soon as it was ready, we shipped it out immediately.
This means you now have PW14 in your hands that is just a few weeks old.
Paper and films would have started to deteriorate due to storage time. Normally, you would have received paper that was on average six months old, as Forte kept master rolls in stock and cut them to order for us.
Apart from the thinner base, that’s another factor that springs to mind.
Hüter would also be my suggestion.
Best regards,
Mirko
Tammo
I realise that the paper sticks to the cloth if I heat it too much, but not when it’s cold – and by that I mean at room temperature; when wet, the paper sticks like superglue. I think in this case you could certainly call it a quality issue; I certainly can’t see any positive benefit in it. Unfortunately, there aren’t really any alternatives when you consider the price.
Tammo
I’ve got a question about the guard: can you make it yourself? Or rather, what’s it made of? I haven’t found anything in the catalogue and I don’t fancy buying from the competition.
The point about the paper being fresh makes perfect sense.
heinrich
Hi everyone,
>>"I realise that the paper sticks to the cloth if I set the temperature too high, but not when it’s cold – and by that I mean room temperature; when wet, the paper sticks like superglue."
Is there a mistake in your reasoning here? Semi-damp or not yet fully dried baryta papers always stick to the cover cloth of the drying press; that’s normal, and it happens with all the baryta papers I’ve pressed properly (Kodak, Agfa, Ilford, Forte, Classic & ADOX). I leave baryta papers in the drying press until they peel away from the tension cloth; you can hear them coming away – there’s a slight crackling sound. When you then open the press, the paper lies flat on the press, though it may still stick at one or two corners.
With my test strips, the paper behaves exactly the same way; I’m talking about the ADOX Polywarmton PW14 here. At the old setting of just over 50°C (old baker’s press, temperature controller definitely not calibrated, measures nonsense figures), it was too warm; the paper still hadn’t come away after 10 minutes, even though it was dry. Now, at the 40°C setting, the test strip is dry after ~10 minutes and no longer sticks to the cloth.
>Regarding the hardener, a question: can you make this yourself? Or rather, what is it made of? I haven’t found anything in the catalogue and don’t feel like buying from the competition.
In the past, potassium alum was used as a hardener additive; see Ansel Adams’ *The Print*. I have no idea what is used today.
Regards
Heinrich
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