Gast
...should I mix it all at once (it probably only keeps for 6 months) or is it better to do it in small batches?
Is that possible? Which is better?!
Thanks,
xtoler
cfb_de
Hello xtoler (I actually prefer real names),
Mixing "bit by bit" won’t work. The bulk densities of the various ingredients differ quite significantly, so you can’t be sure you’re mixing them correctly.
That’s precisely what’s so utterly perverse about the Kodak philosophy (though the latter foreign term does take on a rather satirical tone here): it’s all about volume. And if the customer throws away 80% of a paid-for product... who cares. The turnover’s right.
So simply: prepare the developer in a sufficiently large container and just use it from there. ‘Unfortunately’, these ‘organic developers’ usually show a very immediate reaction when they go off. And that’s one of the reasons for my enthusiasm for Rodinal.
Best regards,
Franz
skahde
...should I mix it all at once (it only keeps for 6 months, I reckon) or is it better to do it in small batches?
Is that possible? Which is better?!
The ingredients disperse evenly in solution, but the solids in the X-Tol bag don’t. On top of that, there’s another problem – it’s not as if I hadn’t already tried out this stupid idea myself (I’m allowed to say that, I used to have it 8) ): when you open the bag, the contents absorb a bit of moisture and go rancid within a short time. Even resealing it doesn’t help. Within a few weeks, you end up with an ugly brown sludge. Opening the bag means either using it all up or throwing it all away.
It’s probably not part of Kodak’s ‘philosophy’ to only offer Xtol in 5L and 50L packs. The small 1L pack caused too much hassle, and I reckon I threw away more clumped-up 1L Xtol back then than I’ve had to pour away residual 5L Xtol since.
Incidentally, you get the benefits of Xtol without the drawbacks of shelf life and pack size with Suzuki’s DS10. You do have to prepare that yourself, though, and a corresponding commercial product (low pH plus ascorbate et al.) is still preventing the Xtol patent until around 2016.
Best regards
Stefan
Gast
Hello, namesake,
Start with the 5-litre pack of distilled water. That’ll protect you from any issues caused by water containing metals. Then fill five 1-litre bottles to the brim and take lots of photos!
Best wishes,
AUch-Xtoler
Gast
Hello,
I always prepare a 5-litre batch and immediately bottle it into brown 1-litre glass bottles, filling them to the first mark. I add a little Protectan on top.
I use Xtol exclusively as a single-use developer at a dilution of 1:2. A few days ago, I used up the last bottle from my batch prepared in May 2004. No loss of quality. Excellent shadows, very good sharpness.
The only thing that bothers me is the batch in the green bucket and the decanting. I haven’t quite found the ideal solution for that yet.
Regards
Kalle
Beef
Hello
This is an old thread, but never mind ;)
I received my order of Rodinal and Xtol today. I’d like to compare the developers on my Fomapan film.
Rodinal is great because you have the concentrate and just need to perform dilution each time you develop.
I also don’t think I’ll use up the 5L of Xtol before it goes off.
Now I’ve had an idea: can’t you mix Xtol into an extremely concentrated solution too? A bit like Rodinal? For example, into a 1L brown Aponorm bottle, from which I’d then just take out a little Xtol concentrate at a time? Because where there’s little water, there’s also little dissolved oxygen = longer shelf life ;)
I’m sure I’ll get replies saying that the 5L powder probably can’t be dissolved in 1L... but maybe there’s a way to make it work anyway ;) Even if dissolving it takes several hours... it would be worth it to me.
Does anyone have any experience with this? Or perhaps an even better tip than the ones mentioned above for storing X-Tol for as long as possible?
Regards
Andi
orwograph
The 'sudden death' thing isn't such a big deal if you mix the stuff with demineralised water. It should last at least a year. So I don't really see the point of making the solution so highly concentrated. Who’s to say the solution won’t go off or turn sour? I reckon the chemists at Kodak had a good reason for the concentration they chose. Besides, you don’t have to use the solution at a 1:3 ratio. 1:1 is fine, and apparently some people even use it undiluted. And then, depending on the developer canister, that’s only enough for 9 rolls of film (120) with a 550 ml fill volume. And that’s not much at all. What I actually find silly is that once you’ve mixed it, you’re left with five litre bottles of X-Tol Blue sitting around the flat or wherever.
Peter.
Gerd
I don’t have any experience with it myself, but Fomadon Excel is available in a 1-litre pack (enough for up to 10 films). It’s similar to XTOL, so you can use the same development times. (The shop currently has the wrong description; the PDF has the correct one)
It is a bit more expensive than the 5-litre pack from Kodak, but 40 cents shouldn’t be too much for a single film. It’s worth a go to see if you like this type of developer.
By the way, you can get brown bottles cheaply at the chemist’s, and distilled water at the DIY store.
Gerd
Wolfgg
The latest post here says that you can concentrate the 5-litre bottle of Xtol down to 2 litres:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/sho...p?postid=925945
Problems with shelf life are said to arise only if the developer is left standing at 30°C or above for a prolonged period.
Regards, Wolfgang
Beef
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes, I’ve now read that Xtol concentrated to 2.5 litres (so instead of dissolving it in 5 litres, just dissolve it in 2.5 litres and mix with water when using) keeps for over a year. As I’ve now realised, using distilled water is generally important with this developer.
What’s the point of making it so highly concentrated? Well, as you said: I don’t really want to have five smelly pharmacy bottles standing around here ;) There are already four of those here anyway, plus four more plastic ones ;)
Yeah, I’m not really familiar with X-TOL yet either...to be honest, I’ve no idea how I’m even supposed to mix this developer (ratio) ;)
Up until now I’ve been using the ATM49... the development was always a bit of a rough-and-ready affair... you constantly had to guess how much longer you needed to develop, the more films you’d already developed with it. And apart from that, the image quality from the developer wasn’t really my thing.
So I’ve just gone and ordered some Rodinal and X-TOL. I’ve already done a full test run with Rodinal today, with development times ranging from 3 to 15 minutes. Looking at the negatives, I’m really impressed. Especially with how well you can control this ONE-TIME developer.
Well, and now I’m a bit sceptical again about the Xtol solution, which I have to mix myself and will probably have to develop again using those ‘APPROXIMATE TIMES’.
But you can also set up XTL as a single-use developer (1:1)... is that right? Would that mean I have to mix the 5-litre solution with another 5 litres of water??? So to make 10 litres??? :lol:
Regards
Andi
cfb_de
Hi Andi,
Generally speaking, I think more of single-use developers than of this non-reproducible mumbo jumbo. You described this yourself in your experiences with ATM49.
For XTOL as a single-use developer, you take the required amount from the 5-litre canister and perform dilution with water. After development, the solution goes down the drain and the storage canister isn’t quite as full anymore.
To clarify (I get the feeling you’re a bit lost at the moment): Do you also perform dilution on the entire bottle of Rodinal 1+50 when you want to develop a film? Exactly.
You take the few millilitres you need. It’s exactly the same with XTOL, except that you have to prepare the ‘concentrate’ yourself from the powder sachets beforehand.
If the 5-litre batch can really be dissolved in 2.5 litres (which I won’t be able to verify due to a lack of XTOL), using it as a single-use developer would be the method of choice. The bucket for the stock solution is only half the size. To achieve results comparable to the standard “1+1” batch, you’ll simply need to perform dilution of 0.5+1.
Best regards,
Franz
HenningH
... To get results comparable to the standard "1+1" approach, you’ll just have to perform dilution on 0.5+1. ...
Maybe I’m just a bit out of the loop at the moment... ;)
Shouldn’t it be 1+3 or 0.5+1.5?
Swinging regards
Henning
cfb_de
Hello Henning,
When preparing XTOL to the "target concentration", you perform dilution at a ratio of 1:1.
If you now prepare XTOL at “0.5 times the standard concentration” (i.e. dissolving the 5-litre batch in 2.5 litres), you need half as much of the stock solution for the same amount of powder. Ergo: 0.5 parts of a more concentrated XTOL stock solution and still exactly one part water (the concentration of which hasn’t changed).
Is everything clear now?
Everyone can work out the 1+3 part for themselves. Ultimately, it’s a rule-of-threes problem for Year 8 at secondary school. So nothing special.
(I’m familiar with a snide remark at the end: “iudex non calculat”. Lawyers use this to imply they can’t do maths; taken literally, one could also quip that the law doesn’t count. But this blatant inability to calculate one’s own chemical dilution in the laboratory – that’s the rule of three – only leads to further restrictions on our hobby by the authorities, fuelled by even greater public censure. This was recently witnessed live and in colour on selenium toner. Humanity is being protected, and the relevant products are of lesser quality.)
Best regards,
Franz
mdeutgen
Franz,
could it be that you’re a bit off the mark here? Henning is right in his comment!
When I prepare XTOL in concentrated form (dissolving the 5-litre pack in just 2.5 litres), I first have to dilute this concentrate back to the ‘normal strength’ (doubling the volume) and only then can I make my 1+1 dilution. In my notation, it looks like this:
(0.5 + 0.5) + 1 = 0.5 + 1.5 or also 1 + 3
Note: 1+3 here should not be confused with the 1+3 dilution from the standard stock solution; in this respect, I prefer the notation 0.5 + 1.5 as an indicator of a higher-concentration stock solution. But everyone can do as they please, just like a roofer.
Martin
Gerd
Here are a few links to Xtol:
here,
here.
Gerd
mdeutgen
I'm not sure whether Jörg Bergs' instructions cover this specific case...
Beef
I’ve already trawled through all the instructions on Google yesterday ;)
So can I just clarify one thing first of all?:
Stock = mix the entire sachet of powder into 5 litres of water
1:1 = mix the 5-litre mixture with another 5 litres of water
1:2 = mix the 5-litre mixture with 10 litres of water
and so on...
(I mean, just in terms of the ratio)
Right at the very start, I always thought that 1:1 meant: the ENTIRE powder in the specified amount of water.
It was only through this site that I came across the term ‘stock’:
Developer-Film-Verzeichnis
(Very good site!)
I also think that because of this misunderstanding, I set up my ATM49 incorrectly... I always used the standard 2L mixture as a multi-use developer (practically ‘stock’, if I’m not mistaken).
And now the most important thing for me:
The Xtol packaging lists example times. It notes below that longer development times can be achieved through dilution of 1:1 (so based on the RATIO: add another 5L of water???).
So, WHICH dilution is the one for
SINGLE-USE DEVELOPMENT
???
I’m sure I’ll get replies saying it doesn’t matter... but I’d like to know what the official recommendation is, so I can get a good balance of time, grain and sharpness.
Regards
Andi
Gerd
So actually, it’s quite simple. Let me go over it again for the record.
You take all your powder, stir it into 5 litres of water (preferably distilled water, e.g. from a DIY store) and set the mixture – which is now called a stock solution – aside, under the bed, in the cupboard, wherever.
When you want to develop a film, take as much of the stock solution as you need to make a 1:1, 1:2 or 1:3 mixture in your container.
If you want to make a 1:1 mixture and you have a tank that requires 250ml of chemical, then take 125ml of the stock solution and add 125ml of water.
Similarly, I’ll leave the maths to you if you want to make a 1:2 or 1:3 mixture. The higher the dilution, the sharper the image, though with slightly distorted grain.
You should make sure you don’t use less than 100ml of the stock solution per film, otherwise there will be problems, according to Kodak.
So, WHAT dilution is the one for SINGLE-USE DEVELOPMENT???
I’m sure I’ll get replies saying it doesn’t matter... but I’d like to know what the official recommendation is, so I can get a good balance of time, grain and sharpness.
Diluted stock solution can only be used as a single-use developer because it degrades quite quickly. However, it degrades less quickly than Rodinal, which is said to be ruined after just 20 minutes.
There are recommended development times for each of the dilutions. If you only have the times for 1:1, then you should develop using a 1:1 dilution and the recommended times, rather than just fiddling around. You can save that for when you have a reasonable idea of what you’re doing.
Make sure the temperature is correct. Use a proper thermometer, e.g. one designed for colour processes, which can be purchased from FOTOIMPEX.
mdeutgen
Andi,
Just to clarify:
To prepare XTOL, dissolve the entire contents of the sachet in 5 litres of water (preferably distilled water). This gives you your stock solution. You can then use this to develop your films; you just need to increase the processing time in line with the instructions as you develop more films.
It is better, however, to make a single-use developer from the stock solution by performing a 1 + 1 dilution. When doing so, however, you should only take as much stock solution from your supply as you need for your developing tank; for a JOBO 1510, that is 125 ml of stock solution plus 125 ml of water. A 1 + 1 dilution goes off much faster than stock solution!
In this context, it also makes sense not to store the stock solution in a 5-litre container, but to decant it into smaller bottles. A bottle filled to the brim with an inert gas lasts much longer than one that is half-full.
Perhaps you could download the datasheet from Kodak; it’s in English, but it actually describes this in quite some detail.
Otherwise, send me a PM and I’ll send it to you!
Martin
cfb_de
Could it be that you’re currently standing on a round hollow object? Henning is right in his comment!
Hello Martin,
I certainly am not standing on that. We’re just talking at cross-purposes. Let me define the “1+1” from the data sheet as the “target dilution”; that might help clarify things a bit.
This target dilution is achieved if I dissolve the contents of the sachet in 5 litres of water and then further dilute it 1+1.
If I dissolve the contents of the sachet in just 2.5 litres of water, I obtain a stock solution that is twice as concentrated. So I only need half of it to achieve the target dilution. Ergo: 0.5 parts stock solution to one part water. That’s what I wrote, nothing else.
Who’s standing on this round hollow sphere? ;)
Best regards,
Franz
