Water stains on negatives

Gast · 2004-12-31T10:05:51+00:00

Hallo, ich schlage mich mit dem leidigen Problem rum, dass meine SW-Filme mit Wasserflecken trocknen - TROTZ Netzmittel und destilliertem Wasser ;) Auch d...

Gast

Hello, I’m struggling with the annoying problem that my SW films dry with water marks – DESPITE using a wetting agent and distilled water ;) Even using a film squeegee doesn’t help (except perhaps to leave a few scratches). Does anyone have any tips? Thanks in advance – and a [color="red"]Happy New Year!!![/color :) Sandra

Urnes

Hi Sandra, Perhaps you’re drying your films too quickly or at too high a temperature. In that case, the water doesn’t have time to drain off. That happened to me when I had a few films in the drying cabinet, or sometimes when I was in a rush and just threw them in. Otherwise, I always dry the film between two pegs on the clothesline in the darkroom at around 14–18 degrees, and I haven’t had any problems. Regards, Sven.

MirkoBoeddecker

Sandra, How do you use the distilled water? Which wetting agent do you use, and in what concentration? How do you remove the streaks? What do the stains look like? Mirko

Gast

Hello, >How do you use the distilled water? After thorough washing, the film is placed entirely in a bowl (approx. 3 litres) of distilled water, to which Mirasol has been added in ‘homeopathic doses’ (about 1 ml; I use a syringe to measure it out). >How do you remove the film? I have a film squeegee, but no cleanroom conditions ;-) So if I do it, it’s only very carefully. It’s a bit of a dilemma: would you rather have spots or scratches?... Although, with a film squeegee, I can easily manage both ;) No, seriously, I hardly dare touch it anymore and, to be on the safe side, I took my last films to the “Impex” people to be developed. >What do the spots look like? Like limescale stains. White I dry the films in the bathroom, hanging them on the washing line. Regards Sandra

Gast

1 ml of wetting agent is far too much – you should treat it like the gin in a gin and tonic – the gin/distilled water bottle should only have caught a brief glimpse of the wetting agent bottle from a distance... ;) Seriously though, when I used to use wetting agent, I’d usually just dip my fingertip into it briefly, then give the water container a quick stir with my finger, and even then there’d be wetting agent stains now and then; with distilled water, wetting agent is unnecessary – you’re better off getting a salad spinner and letting the film, along with the spiral, spin for 1 minute; it’ll come out almost completely dry and will dry without leaving any stains.

Sandra

Hi Roman, That tip about the salad spinner sounds brilliant! It’ll finally get a chance to shine again ;) You’re probably right about the wetting agent too. Right, I’ll give it a go! I need to buy some new developer on Monday, then I can get started. I’ll keep you posted. Thanks :) Sandra

mau

What wetting agent are you using? You shouldn’t really be having this problem; I’d guess the concentration is wrong. P.S. Why not just try using tap water and following the manufacturer’s instructions for the wetting agent?

zensusa

Hello Sandra, I’m just writing to you because I want to spare you any further frustration, as the suggestions mentioned above (such as ‘dipping your fingertip’ or even using a ‘salad spinner’) are, to put it mildly, a bit silly. I hope you won’t follow these tips, as they’re completely impractical. So here are a few pointers that I’ve tested in practice over decades. 1. Wetting agents should only (i.e. generally) be mixed with distilled water. The suggestion that no wetting agent is needed with distilled water does not ‘promote film quality’ – (even if all preceding developing solutions were prepared with distilled water, including the film rinsing) – as a good wetting agent not only prevents water spots but also influences archival stability and flatness; the latter applies in particular to polyester-based films (e.g. Efke, Macos Po100c, Cube 400 and Rollei R3 etc.)! 2. So always use distilled water for the wetting agent. Otherwise, feel free to prepare the wetting agent to water ratio according to the manufacturer’s instructions; generally speaking, nothing can go wrong if you follow them. I myself used Tetenal’s “Mirasol” for years in a ratio of 1:700 (1 part Mirasol to 700 parts water). For the past four years, I have been using “Masterproof” from Laborpartner in a ratio of 1:200. Masterproof is the better wetting agent, particularly when used with polyester films. However, there are certainly other suitable wetting agents available. 3. It is very important that the film rests in the wetting agent; i.e. do not move the film vigorously back and forth, as this will cause bubbles to form, which are very difficult to remove. The wetting agent should already have been left to stand so that there are no bubbles on its surface either. Leave the film to rest in the wetting agent for one minute. Then slowly remove the film from the bath and simply ‘shake off’ the excess water. Do not wipe the film dry, but hang it up while still wet, preferably in a drying cabinet, and allow it to dry with a “cold air supply” (under no circumstances use a heated air blower or even a hairdryer). The film is usually dry after 1 to 2 hours (depending on the ambient temperature). 4. I’m sure some readers will now say that a drying cabinet is far too expensive. That’s true, and yet it isn’t! I’ve been using a “DevAppa FT 1800” drying cabinet for around ten years, which consists solely of a fan unit and a transparent hanging chamber (visually comparable to Jobo’s Mistral; which costs around 200 euros) and can be mounted anywhere; it was manufactured at the time by Devappa - Zinnser GmbH in Kelheim. I mention this model only because it was very inexpensive (back then just 175 DM) and is very reliable and flexible, even after ten years of continuous use. I don’t know whether the model and the company still exist; one would have to look into it. In any case, anyone who ‘loves’ their films – which, after all, involve a great deal of work – should consider making such a purchase. It certainly pays for itself. Incidentally, drying cabinets and other laboratory equipment can currently be bought second-hand very cheaply, as many photo studios and laboratories have scaled back or abandoned their ‘analogue film processing’. Perhaps Mirko could also add an affordable “drying cabinet” to his range! Best regards and every success

Gast

If you think a salad spinner isn’t practical, have a look at the forum of our competitors (Phototec) and search older posts for ‘salad spinner’ – that’s where I got the tip. About two or three years ago, everyone there started using salad spinners, precisely because it really works: the water is spun out, so there can be no stains, and the risk of dust becoming baked into the emulsion is minimal; incidentally, one of these things costs maybe 15 euros, whereas a film drying chamber (i.e. a plastic bag or pouch complete with a fleece filter, thermostat and heating element – that’s all it is, really) costs at least 10 to 20 times as much (second-hand on eBay) – there are nicer things to buy for that money... Roman PS: Wetting agents I’ve had experience with: Agfa Agepon, Kodak PhotoFlo (that was the best, but it’s hardly available anymore), Ilford Ilfotol – and absolutely ALL of them ALWAYS led to wetting agent stains, despite minimal dosing and without foaming. Wetting agents no longer have any influence on archival stability either, since Mirasol no longer contains formaldehyde... Note: The supposedly ‘more professional’ solution isn’t always the one that actually achieves the best results!

Gast

mau

Salad spinners or not, you shouldn’t take what’s posted on forums as gospel. Personally, I’ve had good results with both Agepon and Mirasol. Whether you use a salad spinner or not, and whether you use a wetting agent or not, the important thing is to dry the produce in a clean room. A drying cabinet is certainly not the worst of all solutions.

Sandra

Hello, dear forum members, I’ve got plenty to read here! Thank you for all your help. I’ll need to take my time and read through it all first. By the way, I use Mirasol. I started with the recommended concentration, but then switched to the dosage mentioned above. Best wishes Sandra

rherz

Hello Sandra, If you use demineralised water and Mirasol, a dosage of 1.2 ml per litre of water should be sufficient – I use 0.3 ml for my 250 ml in the 1510 Jobo canister. I remove the spindle from my reel and soak the film, complete with the spiral, in the wetting agent bath for at least one minute at 20 °C. Don’t forget to tap the can lightly on the surface after filling it – there are always a few air bubbles. Then give the film in the spiral a vigorous shake using your wrist and hang it up in a dust-free place. Alternatively, you can use a salad spinner – but you don’t have to. Important at this time of year: don’t let it dry too quickly – otherwise the film will curl up and the water won’t have time to drain off. I hope that helps. Best regards Robert

zensusa

I feel I must make a few comments on Roman’s post, as I consider his statements to be illogical, rambling and by no means helpful. On the contrary, they mindlessly repeat advice that has been doing the rounds for years as so-called ‘insider tips’ or ‘alternatives’ and keeps cropping up in forums time and time again. 1. – The statement (quote): “Note: The supposedly ‘more professional’ solution is not always the one that actually achieves the desired result!” is completely illogical and daft in this context, because the film processing method I described results in films that are free of spots and dust and lie flat (if one disregards the extremes of a Cube 400, as this film always warps). In other words, this method using a drying cabinet has proven itself professionally and always produces exactly the result intended. A salad spinner does not produce these results and therefore cannot be the more effective method! 2. - I’ve been familiar with the salad spinner method since the mid-1960s; I tried it myself during my first lab experiments and very quickly abandoned it! Of course, the water is spun off the film, but dust is also attracted, the film spirals get damaged over time, and so on and so forth. 3. - Why not ask all these salad spinner tipsters whether they still process their films using a salad spinner, or whether they have ever actually used this method themselves? I’ll bet you that most salad spinner enthusiasts only understand this method of film drying in theory, but have never actually put it into practice! And what about you, Roman, do you process your films in a salad spinner? And for how many years have you been successfully carrying out this treatment? 4. - Second-hand drying cabinets are available for as little as 50 to 60 euros. A new unit, with a warranty etc. (e.g. Jobo’s Mistral), can be had for as little as 200 euros. Anyone who finds that too expensive and thinks (quote) “...there are nicer things to buy with that money...”, clearly doesn’t think much of their own photographic work, because the negatives are, after all, the key to one’s own work and shouldn’t be thrown away. Incidentally, all my black-and-white negatives, even those that have been archived for 37 years, are in good condition because they were processed and handled properly! 5. – When Roman writes (quote) “... and absolutely ALL of them ALWAYS resulted in wetting agent stains, despite minimal dosing and without foaming...”, then I can only say: Dear Roman, somehow you have no idea about lab work, because whilst things may go wrong now and then, by no means do ALL wetting agents ALWAYS lead to stains etc. I advise you to do a bit more lab work and post less in forums, then it’ll work out without stains! I hope this post isn’t too ‘gruff’, but I feel that, even in this forum, people are chatting away a bit too thoughtlessly. Surely it would be better to give photography enthusiasts seeking help only those tips and pointers that you have practised yourself and can therefore judge! Anything else is just idle chatter and not at all helpful, because constantly passing on tips that were once posted somewhere in forums or magazines, without ever having tested them yourself, isn’t helpful – it’s downright shabby for people seeking help, because the frustration sets in faster than the negatives can dry! Until then, best regards

rherz

@ ZENSUSA, I’d appreciate it if you could be a bit more restrained too. ;) The salad spinner method works brilliantly – provided you have the right one (a sturdy, sufficiently large basket, a handle rather than a rope so the direction of rotation doesn’t keep reversing, and of course a counterweight for the reel and film – otherwise it’ll be unbalanced). It doesn’t get any dustier than with your blower – provided the thing is clean. @ Sandra I’ve only just noticed that you’re using 1 ml per 3 litres of water – that’s probably simply too little. And again – drying takes time. The water needs to be able to drain away – what drains away doesn’t dry in. If the film dries too quickly, ‘puddles’ form, which then dry out and the wetting agent they contain is left behind as a stain. The film also warps more. I make sure there’s a large puddle of water on the floor beneath my films and run hot water into the sink again to humidify the air a bit – which is too dry at this time of year – and thus slow down the drying process. So, just give it another go and don’t give up. :) Best regards, Robert

Gast

'Chatting away without thinking' actually sums up your post very aptly! I’ve been using this method myself ever since I heard about it (so for about 2–3 years now); in that time, I’ve developed probably 200–300 films using it (both 35mm and medium format), and since then I haven’t had any problems with wetting agent stains or dust (how and where on earth is a salad spinner supposed to attract dust???) – whereas before, despite strictly following the manufacturer’s instructions and experimenting with lower concentrations of wetting agent, I regularly had spots (and Sandra probably did too, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked). Since then, most of my photographic acquaintances have also been using this method – with equally positive results – and without any damage to the film spools (how on earth would they get damaged in the process?). It is therefore a widely used method that has even gained international recognition via photo.net and is regularly employed by many users! So rather than dismissing the practical, tried-and-tested advice from satisfied users – advice that works perfectly and delivers the desired result (namely dust- and stain-free negatives) – perhaps you should allow yourself to be less swayed by supposedly professional working methods – I realise full well that as an old fogey, one doesn’t necessarily tend towards creative working methods and innovative (and, what’s more, affordable) solutions... Roman

zensusa

Sure, at 56 I’m an old fart in the eyes of people like Roman – a professional who’s been doing photography for 40 years and, lo and behold, this old, uncreative, uninnovative fart has actually managed to hang on until today, even though he doesn’t shoot passport photos, weddings or mainstream advertising rubbish, and even though the art and photography market is changing faster than some people can type their forum posts. Yet it’s obvious that only by being creative and innovative can one survive in the long term in the fields of art, graphic design and photography. Nobody then tends towards cheap solutions (just because they’re cheap); instead, one prefers the solution that is most effective and delivers predictable, reproducible results, allowing one’s own ideas to be realised as ideally as possible. Otherwise, I’m happy for everyone who seems to get on well with the salad spinner; as I’ve already mentioned, I used to use one myself, but it still has serious disadvantages compared to a drying cabinet. In any case, I can only process polyester films – which, to achieve the best results, should be hung up and dried while wet – in a ‘proper’ manner in a drying cabinet. This applies all the more to roll and sheet films – or does anyone actually spin sheet films in a salad spinner? Otherwise, as far as creativity and innovative ability are concerned, I’d love to speak to Roman again in 40 years’ time. I’m curious to see how creative and innovative his life’s journey has been. When I look at my posts in this forum, I have always provided very specific and detailed answers and solutions to questions. The same cannot exactly be said of other participants, who obviously have something to say about everything, all the time. But apparently that’s just my impression, as other participants don’t seem to see it that way? Very well, I won’t comment any further on this. Have a lovely evening

Gast

When I look back at my posts on this forum, I’ve always provided very specific and detailed answers and solutions to questions.

If that was your intention, then please try to keep your axe in the cupboard next time someone describes a method you don’t agree with. Given how personally disparaging your ‘arguments’ are here, it’s simply impossible to take you seriously, even with the best will in the world.

Sandra

Hello, I bought the new developer from Impex yesterday and mentioned my problem to the sales assistant. He advised me to leave the film in the wetting agent bath a little longer – about 2 minutes. I’d already wondered whether my films might have dried a bit too quickly, as the temperature in the bath is quite high. I’m sorry that some of you clashed so strongly over your opinions. That really wasn’t my intention. :( But I do think you’ve helped me anyway, and I thank you for that. Best wishes Sandra

joerngreuling

Hmm, I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong—or right—but in about 20 years of home processing, I’ve never had any problems with drying spots on the black-and-white films I’ve developed myself. Perhaps that’s because I’m a bit more relaxed with my negatives—compared to what the previous speakers seem to put their films through. After the final rinse, I add a generous splash of wetting agent to the tank, then move the reel back and forth a bit in the solution until it foams slightly, and finally let the whole thing sit for about five minutes. I then take the reel out of the tank, open it, and carefully wipe off the wetting agent solution clinging to the film with a squeegee. I’ve dipped the squeegee into the tin beforehand so that the rubber lips are moistened. The film is then hung up in the bathroom to dry. And that’s it: no drying spots, no scratches. And all without distilled water, without measuring out the wetting agent, without any alchemical faff. So it works for me. Regards, Jü