Gast
Hello Forte fans at FI,
After the bad news from Ilford, now this too: is Forte finished?
I’m not particularly keen on Forte films, but the Hungarian photographic papers (especially the Fortezo fixed-grade...) are, in every respect, ‘state of the art’ for me and my photographic vision, and there’s currently no alternative to them.
Is the rumour of Forte’s insolvency just a rumour, or is there actually some truth to it?
Deeply concerned,
Fortissimo possibile
MirkoBoeddecker
At present, it cannot be ruled out that temporary supply bottlenecks may occur at any manufacturer (with the exception of Kodak).
This is due, on the one hand, to the turmoil surrounding Ilford and, on the other, to the rapid decline in the market.
The legal framework does not always allow a business to adapt to the reduced global demand with the necessary speed.
Exactly what is happening in Hungary and how Forte will find a way out of this ‘dilemma’ remains unclear at this stage.
They simply cannot lay off staff, but there is no longer enough work for all 350 employees.
It’s nobody’s fault; that’s just the way things are, but if a company is not allowed to lay off staff it can no longer employ, then at some point it will go bankrupt or the state will step in with subsidies.
And then there will be a shortage of materials for a certain period of time.
We’ve known for some time that things would get tight at some point and have accordingly ‘stockpiled’ the most important sizes in bulk.
Unfortunately, we couldn’t do this on a larger scale (lack of funds and lack of space in the cold store).
We couldn’t do any more than that, and we were also taken by surprise by such a sudden halt in production.
We’ll just have to get through the next few weeks.
After that, if all goes well, the new paper will be available on the bright white, but slightly thinner, base (see the new catalogue).
Nothing has changed regarding the emulsion, but we’ve stopped using the 320g base.
Best regards,
Mirko
EAK-Kremer
But the 320g paper is no longer available from us.
Hello!
For me as a photographic artist, this is a disaster!
Are there any other reliable manufacturers of ‘heavy’ baryta papers with a classic emulsion, whose papers don’t cause any problems when air-dried?
MirkoBoeddecker
Forte is not the manufacturer of this baryta paper.
In theory, any manufacturer can apply an emulsion to any type of paper.
There was already some discussion here on the forum a few months ago regarding the switch to the new paper.
It was neither our decision nor Forte’s to reduce the baryta paper weight from 320 to 300 grams.
The EU has banned the bleaching process and the base manufacturer had to discontinue the entire product range.
There isn’t enough turnover to justify a new machine.
The only machine that could be adapted can only handle up to 300g.
BUT please don’t paint the devil on the wall without having tried the new base.
The difference is only noticeable in a direct comparison when you run your fingers over it for the third time.
320 to 300 grams. Not 320 to 180!!
And it also has three advantages:
1) The cold-tone paper will now also be available on the heavyweight base
2) Thanks to the modern bleaching process, the base paper is whiter, so the image is more brilliant without the need for additional fluorescent whitening agents.
3) The new bleaching process is environmentally friendly and therefore has a promising future.
I haven’t noticed any difference in drying time!
How long do you usually soak it for?
Best regards,
Mirko
EAK-Kremer
It wasn’t our decision, nor Forte’s, to reduce the baryta paper weight from 320 to 300 grams.
320 to 300 grams. Not 320 to 180!!
How long do you usually soak it for?
Regards,
Mirko
Well, I was being pessimistic and assumed that Forte wouldn’t be supplying at all anymore. Whether it’s 320 or 300 grams doesn’t matter to me, as long as it doesn’t warp when air-drying.
I rinse in lukewarm water using the ‘gold panning method’, i.e. pouring water over it and swirling it around, repeating this 5–6 times. As I usually bleach it briefly again (and then rinse it again, of course), the felt gets too much strain if rinsed for too long; the swollen wheels then become unmanageable. So always rinse for as short a time as possible. I have baryta prints from the late 70s (Agfa paper) that still show no signs of ageing or stains. That’s why I assume my rinsing method is so effective. It’s important that the water is lukewarm (20–24°C) and not cold.
MirkoBoeddecker
So, in this respect, there’s no need to worry about any differences between the old and new base papers.
Should Forte – contrary to all expectations – decide to cease production, we will of course offer similar baryta papers on 240 or 300 gsm base papers that also do not warp during drying.
Does this happen to you with Foma Baryt as well?
However, despite a competitor’s claims to the contrary, it currently looks as though things will be back on track in Hungary very soon (meaning stock should arrive again in a few months, and don’t forget: we deliver daily. The warehouse is full!!).
Hopefully, we’ll know more in a few days.
Mirko
Gast
Hello Mirko,
Does that mean you’ll definitely be able to supply baryta papers in the ‘Polywarmtone’ style in future?
What about the Classicpan films, which are also made by Forte? I use the CP 200 up to 8x10 inches with pyro developer myself, alongside the Efke. It would be great if it were to remain available in future. US large-format photographers are also keen on this combination. Surely there must be enough demand to keep the material in production?
What’s Efke up to, by the way? I hope, at least, that they aren’t in financial trouble.
Best regards
Jürgen
Gast
Hello,
"Should Forte be unable to supply any more, a replacement will be offered"
What might be considered as a replacement? Could Efke start producing film again (the higher demand might justify it), or have you already spoken to Kentmere, Slavich and Fohar?
After all, it’s hard to imagine that Foma would offer any more films unless they were prepared to take an unmanageable risk.
Incidentally, I suppose there’s no objection to a moderate price increase if it ensures continued supply.
Roland
MirkoBoeddecker
How on earth did you all come to the conclusion that Efke has stopped producing film?
Where do you suppose the 50 ASA sheet films (which have never been available before!) and all the Efke films come from?
Polywarmtone: As described above, I can confirm that. That’s for sure.
You can only get an exact match with Forte technicians using Forte emulsion on the Forte machine.
Price rises are looming everywhere. The cost of base material alone has shot up by 80%.
The prices of the last five years were only possible because the manufacturers were all ruining each other in the genuine hope of becoming the sole survivor and reaping the rewards in the end. We can now see where that has led.
The formula ‘cheap = more turnover’ simply doesn’t work in the long run (unless the film already contained all those extra motifs that you’d first have to find :-))
Foma: let’s wait and see. One or two recipes are also lying dormant in Czech cupboards....
Mirko
Gast
You’ve misunderstood me: Efke hasn’t stopped producing films, but at the moment they aren’t producing photographic paper on a regular basis, at least.
That’s exactly what I was getting at with my formulation.
MirkoBoeddecker
If Forte really is no longer able to supply us, we will have to consider various alternatives.
Efke would be one of them.
But for now, we should probably wait and see for a while, rather than rushing into things.
Regarding Efke and the irregular production of photographic paper: if we go and say we want photographic paper cast, then everyone fires up the machines. It’s always a question of quantity. What isn’t feasible is keeping small quantities of Efke paper fully in stock, alongside everything else.
Mirko
MirkoBoeddecker
I’ve just been on the phone with Forte.
We might get more stock in 2–3 months’ time.
Until then, we’ll have to make do somehow.
We are therefore now introducing a 240g baryta paper based on the old Vario Classic 180g.
I don’t yet know what the future holds in terms of prices.
Given that Forte ran into liquidity problems for a reason, all market players are currently expecting moderate price increases.
Despite having a stronger backing, this Vario Classic is definitely priced the same as the old Forte prices.
Mirko
MirkoBoeddecker
News: It looks like we’re getting all the remaining stock available from Forte on factory rolls.
We’ve had to make certain commitments and fork out quite a bit of cash, but what wouldn’t you do for your loyal regular customers?
However, as this is unprocessed stock, it will take a while before we can turn it into films and paper formats.
So if you’re currently working on a series using Polywarmton, Polykaltton or Classicpan 400 KB or sheet film, please put in a pre-order now.
First come, first served.
After that, there won’t be anything available from Forte for at least two months.
Unfortunately, we couldn’t get hold of any more Classicpan roll films or 200 ASA sheet films as the raw materials warehouse was completely empty.
We have a replacement for Polykaltton Baryt and RC: ADOX Fine Print Vario Classic 240g.
The first delivery arrives next week.
Mirko
Gast
After that, there won’t be any Forte products available for at least two months.
Hi Mirko,
A month ago, we were told that nothing would be coming from Hungary for at least two months. I’ve just had my order delivered, but unfortunately it doesn’t include PW RC in 24x30 and PW FB in 30x40, which are actually the paper types and sizes I use most often. :(
When I spoke to a member of the dispatch team on the phone last week, a pallet had just been delivered, but it seems that, unfortunately, it didn’t contain the items I wanted. Is there any news yet? Is there any indication of when Forte will be able to deliver again (if at all – I hope so)?
Best regards,
Joost
MirkoBoeddecker
At the moment, the only thing we can be sure of is what’s on our shelves.
Polywarmton is the product we’re most short of, because there’s no comparable material on the global market (apart from, to a limited extent, Ilford Multigrade Warmtone, which we can supply, but the price is a bit of an issue and has just gone up again...).
For the time being, only the 400 ASA sheet films will be arriving, once they’ve been cut to size.
But we still have some – including Polywarmton.
Perhaps you could cut a larger format or make a smaller print (the latter was a joke)?
The insolvency clown obviously has no idea about the photography business.
It’ll take a while to make decisions, and from there it’ll be at least two weeks before raw materials can be fed in at the front, and another two months before the first finished goods come out at the back, dried and packed.
Developing and printing just isn’t that simple.
Mirko
Gast
Hi Mirko,
Someone on the Hattener Konkurrenz forum wrote that Forte probably won’t be making any more paper in future, but will just be packaging paper they buy in. Can you confirm this bad news, or is everything still up in the air?
At the moment, I’ve run out of my stock of Polywarmton PE in 24x30. I used that for my working prints and for prints that didn’t necessarily need to be on baryta paper. What can you recommend as a replacement? My requirements are: a bright white base (should be brighter than Polywarmton), a slight warm tone, deep blacks and well-defined highlights and shadows. I’d rather not have greenish warm-tone paper (I think I’ve just pretty much listed the characteristics of Polywarmton ;-) ). What can I use? I might also switch to a different developer (I’ve been using Eukobrom so far).
By the way, what’s the situation with Classic PNB developer? I picked up a bottle of that recently just to try it out. Is that also from Forte, and is it likely to go out of stock soon as well?
Regards,
Joost
Gast
Joost,
Have a go at Agfa MCP/MCC – it fits your description, but it’s just a lot more expensive...
Roman
MatthiasStark
Hello,
Agfa MCP really is a top-quality paper, but I wouldn’t describe it as a warm-toned paper. I’d say
it’s more neutral.
Best regards,
Matthias
Gast
That’s true, of course it’s not as warm as Polywarmtone – but give Neutol WA a go at a higher dilution (1+14 or thereabouts); it becomes a bit less ‘neutral’ that way, and it also reacts nicely to Selentoner (albeit less colourfully than PWT).
Fomatone MG would, of course, be another option.
MirkoBoeddecker
Regarding Forte:
Nothing has been decided yet – the insolvency administrator hasn’t even arrived yet.
We are trying to persuade him to restart production immediately to fulfil existing orders and then discuss the restructuring plan whilst operations are ongoing.
That is the current situation as of today.
Mirko
