Buy Praktica Six TL or not?

Gast · 2004-05-16T06:15:34+00:00

Hallo Ralph, Du meinst sicher die Pentacon Six? Kameras aus Dresden sind in jedem Fall immer besser verarbeitet gewesen als die aus der Ukraine, aber die S...

Gast

Hello there, I’d really like to get a second-hand Six TL to give medium format a go. There are some in good condition on eBay for between €100 and €150. Can any of you give me a few tips on what to look out for with the Six? All I know is that they have issues with the image stabilisation (like so many Prakticas). Is the Kiev the better camera? I just don’t want to invest too much money to start with and have been using Prakticas (35mm) up to now. Also, I’ve heard the Six lenses are pretty good (Jena). Thanks and best regards, Ralph

MirkoBoeddecker

Hi Ralph, I assume you’re talking about the Pentacon Six? Cameras from Dresden have certainly always been better processed than those from Ukraine, but the Six really does have problems with film advance. The material of the gears isn’t hard enough, and a body like that usually starts playing up after 500 rolls of film. The Kiev 66 is heavier and not as well-processed in the details, but apparently not as prone to film transport issues. Yes, the lenses are very good; it’s just that the aperture mechanism (spring aperture) on the 180mm is a bit dodgy. My favourite was the 45mm. Is that Russian adapter for fitting Six lenses to the Mamya still available? It’s a question of your budget. If the camera with the 80mm lens in working order really only costs 100 EUR, you can’t really go wrong. If you have more money to spare later on, though, you’ll probably (like most people) want to move on from the Pentacon and buy a Mamya, Bronica or something else. They’re much better (mainly the body). Now the KIEV user is bound to have another go at me... <_< Conclusion: My advice would be to keep saving and buy a Mamya or Yashica Mat straight away. This is coming from someone who’s been down that road himself (though also someone who paid many thousands of marks for his Pentacon with all the lenses and couldn’t even swap it for a Metz flash afterwards...) Best regards, Mirko

uworischki

In principle – yes. I own three bodies myself and am very satisfied (provided you follow a few rules of conduct). The Pentacon Six offers a very affordable entry point into medium format, along with a wide range of relatively inexpensive Russian/Ukrainian lenses and excellent Zeiss-Jena lenses with a K6 mount. Is the Six better than the Kiev 88 or its variants? In my opinion, it’s a question of camera philosophy. The Kiev 88 does indeed also offer the 6x6 format, but it also has interchangeable magazines, which you can do without if you have two Six bodies. The difference in weight isn’t that great. The quality of the Kiev is certainly open to debate, but at least it’s still available to buy new; however, experiences from Kiev owners suggest that the variation in quality is said to be relatively wide. I cannot share these experiences with my three Pentacon Six bodies; if you bear in mind the film advance mechanism, the Six works very well, and should anything break, the Six can be repaired relatively easily, unlike the Kiev. However, if you just want to give it a go, I’d recommend a Zweigige, a Yashica Mat24 or, for an even better price, a Seagull. With the latter, enlargements up to 50x50 are no problem at all. Uwe

Urnes

Hi Ralf, If you’re getting a Pentacon, you should follow the basic rules and never let the winding lever snap. It’s even in the instruction manual. The gears really don’t like that – they’ll jump out of sync and the film advance won’t be correct anymore. You can still have the camera refurbished at Pentacon in Dresden; for around €135, you’ll also get the mirror pre-soldering and the Rolleiflex’s bright focusing screen. Personally, I like to take the P-Six with me when I don’t want to carry a manual rangefinder as well. Just because of the Beliprisma. Otherwise, I started out with a Rolleicord and a Chinese Seagull. The Seagull isn’t bad at all for getting started; I paid 60 DM for it at a flea market back then, and stopped down to f/5.6 it’s actually quite decent. I just couldn’t keep my hands off the twin-lens cameras and later bought a Mamiya C33 because of the interchangeable lenses. Regards, Sven.

Gast

Hello! I own two Pentacon Six TLs and a Kiev 60 myself, as well as various lenses ranging from 45mm to 250mm. So: the Kiev is a sturdy workhorse – when it works, it works (and if it doesn’t, you’ve got a lemon, which does happen occasionally); problems with image overlap are usually down to incorrect adjustment of the film advance. The K60 is bulkier and heavier than the P6. The Pentacon Six TL is therefore lighter and more elegant ;-) Provided a previous owner hasn’t ruined the transport gears by snapping the lever back, there’s a trick that works 100% of the time to avoid overlaps: http://www.baierfoto.de/Transport.html – I’ve probably performed around 100 to 150 exposures on my two P6TLs, and haven’t had a single instance of overlap using this technique. The most serious drawback of the P6TL: Viewfinder & focusing screen: the original focusing screen is dim, dark and quite vignetted in the corners – but the very bright Exakta 66/Mod.1 focusing screens (available with and without a microprism spot) fit as replacements and are very easy to swap out (available for around 10–15 euros at Foto Walser, often via eBay); Ex.66/2 or 3 and Rollei screens also fit with a little adaptation; nevertheless, the P6 viewfinder still only shows 80% of what ends up in the picture... The original light-well viewfinder is also a bit of a joke – it looks stylish, but it doesn’t shield the focusing screen from ambient light – the ideal option is the Exakta 66 light-well viewfinder, which also fits; it even has interchangeable lenses for the viewfinder magnifier to correct for visual impairments (available – though unfortunately not very often – on eBay); Second-best solution: the fixed magnifying viewfinder with dioptre adjustment (just a bit bulkier to carry around, otherwise top-notch). As for the lenses – here is my experience with my own: 45mm Mir: the worst lens I have ever used – out of focus at the edges, useless (though there are also satisfied users; the chances of getting a working one are probably about 50:50). 45mm Hartblei PCS: a shift lens, based on the 45mm Mir, but with quality control having ironed out the flaws – quite usable as far as that goes, but it distorts like mad; if making full use of the 6x6 square, I’d only shift by about 6–8 mm at most. 50mm Flektogon MC: a superb wide-angle lens, excellent sharpness, but unfortunately heavy, and requires expensive 86 or 95mm filters (though that’s the case with almost all MF wide-angles...). 65mm Mir: a good, lightweight wide-angle lens, nice for group shots. 80mm Volna (older version of the Arsat): when stopped down slightly, very sharp and high-contrast, but with an unpleasant, jagged bokeh, which is very distracting. 80mm Biometar (Zebra): slightly less contrasty than the Volna, but with acceptable bokeh. 120mm Biometar (Zebra): the same applies here as for the 80mm BM. 180mm Sonnar: This lens alone makes buying a P6 or K60 worthwhile – arguably one of the best MF portrait lenses of all time; LEGENDARY bokeh, soft and flowing, placing the total focus on the in-focus subject – you have to see it to believe it!!! Yet it offers good sharpness even at wide apertures and has good resolution! 250mm telephoto: quite compact for an MF telephoto; sharp, but not very nice bokeh – to be honest, I haven’t used it all that often (I’m more of a wide-angle user). The adapter for the P6 to Mamiya that Mirko mentioned is still available; if you like, I can give you some sources! By the way, I’ve just picked up a Mamiya 645 Super on eBay myself, on which I wanted to continue using my lenses – reason: I didn’t want to always have to lug two bodies around when hiking, and the 645 Super has interchangeable magazines; on eBay it doesn’t cost any more than a new modified Kiev 88 from Arax or KievCamera (which I still consider less reliable), and besides, the Mamiya system has 35mm wide-angle and central-shutter lenses... Let’s see how I get on with the 645; maybe I’ll sell one of my P6TLs – but I’ll definitely be keeping the lenses! Roman

MirkoBoeddecker

Correction after reading Roman’s post: I meant the Zeiss Flektogon, not the MIR, as my favourite lens. I thought it was a 45mm. It was 14 years ago, after all... Mirko

Gast

Hi Mirko, Why on earth would I want to ‘beat’ you up… I am (among other things!) a ‘Kiev user’ (the name says it all…) but I’m no ‘Kiev fan’, i.e. I know the limitations of the KIEVs and accept them; if one maintains a reference to reality, one must clearly state that these are perfectly serviceable photographic tools, which are of interest to me mainly because of a good and affordable (!!) range of lenses – nothing more, but also nothing less! Best regards!

cfb_de

Hi Mirko, I use a Kiev-60 too and am very happy with it. That said, I’m not going to beat you to it – I’ll just throw the combination of the K60 and the 250mm Jupiter at you :-))) No, seriously: if you’re aware of the limitations of these cameras, they’re not bad at all and offer a wide range of lenses to choose from. You should just always bear in mind that the roughly tenfold price difference compared to a Rollei isn’t just down to brand prestige. The advantage of the K60 is that you can fit everything yourself if the time comes. Having shot over 200 rolls of film with a 12-year-old K60, I’ve had exactly one fault and am now going to have a CLA done. I don’t know where yet; I don’t have the time to do it myself. Best regards, Franz

Gast

Hey, Thanks so much for your quick and very detailed replies. I’ll head straight over to eBay... Ralph

safkas

Hello, I also got into medium-format photography with a Pentacon Six TL and I’m very happy with the camera and, above all, with the lenses. I bought my camera from an old camera shop, so it had already been serviced and had no problems with film advance, and still doesn’t to this day. You just have to be careful not to let the quick-release lever snap. In any case, I’ve never had any problems with overlaps or anything like that. With an eBay purchase, you run the risk of not knowing whether the camera has any issues or not. If it doesn’t and you look after it properly, you’ll enjoy it for a long time to come. It’s true, the big advantage of the camera lies in the choice of lenses. The Zeiss lenses are actually all of very high quality. The only ones better are Schneider-Kreuznach lenses. They are absolutely world class. However, they do come at a price. For the Pentacon Six, Schneider even makes a zoom lens (though it’s very difficult to get hold of), and the standard lens can hold its own against all the new Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad and the like. Kiev lenses MIGHT be good, but they might not. That means you might get lucky, or you might not. But I wouldn’t count on it. I would NEVER skimp on the lens! And they aren’t exactly that much cheaper than Zeiss lenses either. A comparison: I have both a Zeiss Biometar (first version) and a Russian model (presumably the Volna described above). The Volna is MC-coated and has a minimum focus distance of 0.6 metres. However, the MC coating doesn’t make much difference and the lens is EXTREMELY prone to flare! With the Zeiss lens, I had no problems with flare. I once photographed the exact same scene with both lenses and the difference was very clear! The Zeiss lens only has a minimum focusing distance of 1 metre, but it is of better quality (although version 1 does not yet have an MC coating). So it’s best to pop into a camera shop near you and ask if they have a Pentacon Six. I’ve noticed that this camera, and even more so the lenses for it, are in VERY high demand. So you’ll either have to be lucky or wait a while. I was lucky back then and got the camera with the lens, the reflex viewfinder and extension rings, a flash and an exposure meter for just 200 euros. (It helped that I mentioned I’m a poor photography student. *g*) You can also start smaller with medium format. If you’re not afraid of (really!) old cameras and aren’t uninterested in the technical side of things, you can also buy older cameras, such as the Voigtländer Bessa I, Zeiss Ikon or even old Agfa cameras from the 1930s. These usually cost no more than 20–30 euros and you can even get a 6×9 camera. The Voigtländer Bessa and Zeiss Ikon are also of relatively good to very good quality. However, they have a fixed standard lens and rather unusual aperture and shutter speed settings, e.g. f/7.7 and shutter speeds up to 1/400. For this, I would recommend Ilford’s XP2-Super or the new Kodak BW 400CN. These are multi-speed films. This means you can take photos on a single roll with exposures ranging from EV50 to EV800 (with Kodak even up to EV1600). Both films are developed using the C-41 process. This means you can hand them in at a standard lab. No matter how you’ve exposed the film, you don’t need to specify anything else to the lab. DM always develops mine at a very good price and without any problems. This has two advantages: Any incorrect exposures are compensated for (provided you stay within the ISO 50 to 800 range) and development errors and errors during enlargement do not occur. That’s perhaps not a bad option to start with, and for older cameras where the exposure times might not be accurate. And 50x75 cm enlargements from a 6x9 cm negative look great and are relatively cheap (5 euros at DM). So, have fun with medium format.