sibelius
Hello everyone!
This is my first post here... I’m 51 and have been developing and printing photos since I was 10, though only sporadically, so I wouldn’t call myself an expert.
Currently using an Agfa Varioskop with a Kienzle split-grade attachment, tray development, purely black and white.
My question to you:
I want to make my darkroom brighter; so far I have three of the well-known red-light lamps with the fridge bulb inside, I think 15 watts.
I’ve got my eye on one of the old lamps with the sodium vapour bulb. Regarding its suitability for Ilford MG without the corresponding red filter – which is apparently almost impossible to get hold of and, according to my logic and the statements of other users, would simply make everything pitch black – how is nearly monochromatic light at 589 nm supposed to produce a bright red when passed through a red filter? – one finds very mixed reports, if anything at all.
Does anyone have any personal experience regarding suitability, resistance to fogging, minimum distance, or aperture settings?
Many thanks in advance and best regards,
Peter
Wolf_XL
...yes, I have. Without a red filter, the light is virtually useless for black-and-white paper – or you have to dim it so much that it’s no longer any fun to use. And even with a red filter, it’s not much brighter than a standard light. Instead, I use red LED bulbs, such as the Osram LED Star Deco Classic or Decospot. You could even fit those into your existing lights without the filter. They last forever, are energy-efficient (1W) and provide really bright light.
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sputnik
If you’re only processing ILFORD film anyway, get yourself an Ilford SL1. That thing is just incredibly bright!
It’s in a completely different league to lamps from other manufacturers or red LEDs. And that’s despite the fact that it only has a 15W fridge bulb in it.
On the downside, though, it also fogs out every single (!) piece of paper that doesn’t say ‘ILFORD MG’ on it.
In any case, I’m always flabbergasted and literally dazzled whenever I do something on ILFORD and switch on the orange SL1.
jochen53
Hello,
I have the Duka 10 sodium spectral lamp mentioned above and use it without a red filter and undimmed (it has a mechanical dimmer, not an electronic one, by the way) with Ilford MG IV PE paper. The distance to the trays is about 2 m, and to the enlarger about 4–5 m. The lamp does not shine directly onto the trays but indirectly into the room. In addition, I have an AP lamp with an orange plastic bell near the enlarger, about 1.5 m away. I have not noticed any negative effects so far.
I obtained the emission spectrum of the spectral lamp from OSRAM. The intensities of the lines that do not belong to sodium (orange-yellow double line at approx. 589.2 nm) are extremely weak. I have never understood what purpose a red plastic filter disc is supposed to serve with a practically monochromatic light, other than reducing transparency. If you can get hold of one of these cheaply (around €20 – max. €50), then go for it; a replacement lamp costs almost €200 and isn’t worth it! The lamp’s lifespan is significantly reduced by frequent switching on and off. It is particularly sensitive to being switched off and on again whilst still warm. So it’s better to leave it on during breaks.
StraDi
Hello,
The Osram Duka 10 is still very commonly found on the second-hand market. However, it is the predecessor to the Duka 50, which I would recommend instead. The Duka 10 still uses an old NA10 sodium vapour lamp and an additional dichroic filter for absorption of the blue component of the light. It requires around 15 watts of power at 15 volts.
The Osram/Kaiser Duka 50 was the successor, featuring a ‘modern’ NA10FL sodium vapour lamp, which already has an absorption filter for the blue component vapour-deposited onto it. Furthermore, it requires only 10 watts of power at 16 volts. Although both lamps have the same base mechanically, they are not interchangeable!
The Duka lamps are fitted with two filters. The white filter is suitable for processing RA-4 papers and some older black-and-white fixed-grade papers. This can be swapped for a red filter. This enables the processing of modern black-and-white variable contrast papers. This further reduces the brightness. Nevertheless, the Duka 50 is brighter than the older Duka 10, and due to the wavelengths of the light from the sodium vapour lamp, with a maximum at 589 nm, the light is perceived by the human eye as quite bright anyway.
The lamps have a manufacturer-specified lifespan of around 1,000 hours. However, this lifespan is also affected by other factors, such as on/off cycles, etc. The lamps can sometimes be obtained more cheaply from remaining stock... I recently acquired two brand-new, originally packaged NA10FLs for around €50 each from a dealer. You just need to have a bit of a look around and keep your eyes open; there are plenty of hucksters trying to make a quick buck with rare items anyway... this also applies to the 200? NA10/FL lamps on eBay!
I have owned the Osram Dukas for many years and, in my opinion, they are the best darkroom lamps you can get. I have never had any problems with fogging, no matter which paper I have used (Ilford Multigrade, Adox MCP and MCC, Adox Variotone Premium, and many more). If you look at the spectral sensitisation curves of the papers, you will see that the light from the Dukas’ sodium vapour lamp lies exactly within the ‘gap’ of the unsensitised range of these papers. This provides significantly greater reliability than using incandescent bulbs with pre-attached filters. I have often seen here that stray light occurs or that fogging occurs due to the lack of brightness control on simple lamps. Furthermore, the often simple, coloured plastic filter discs do not have as narrow a passband for the spectral lines as a sodium vapour lamp.
In my own comparison with a simple Kaiser Duka, as is still available today (with a plastic filter disc), the Osram Duka shows no impairment whatsoever even after prolonged exposure of the paper – even at maximum brightness.
My tip: whether it’s a Duka 10 or 50 (though I personally would tend towards the latter), I would pay attention to the following points:
- Is the Duka heavily used?
- Are both filter discs, white and red, included?
- Will I get a spare lamp with it if needed?
Less heavily used lamps from hobbyist clearances often still have usable lamps. Furthermore, usually only the white filter disc is included, yet the Dukas were always supplied with both. Many amateur lab technicians have often thrown away or misplaced the red filter because they also used the white one for processing black-and-white paper (which works well even at low brightness settings). Sometimes you also get a spare bulb included... which is ideal, of course.
Otherwise, the NA10/FL bulbs last longer than you might think. I was given an old Duka 50 with the first NA10FL bulb from a specialist laboratory clearance sale. It was in use for hours almost every day for years and still works perfectly. Only the brightness of the bulb has diminished slightly over time. As a tip: if a Duka refuses to ‘kick in’, it’s down to the starter (as with fluorescent tubes). This component is easy and inexpensive to replace. And as the previous speaker already noted: don’t switch it off and on again whilst it’s still warm! The bulbs don’t like that very much and will repay you with a shorter lifespan.
My recommendation: go for it!
See you later...
Dirk
sputnik
Quote from Jochen53: "... a replacement bulb costs nearly €200 and isn’t worth it! The bulb’s lifespan is significantly reduced by frequent switching on and off. It’s particularly sensitive to being switched off and on again whilst still warm. So it’s better to leave it on during breaks."
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That’s exactly why a sodium vapour lamp like that is complete nonsense for the Heiland Spligrade.
As I’ve already said: SL1 and that’s it. Cheap. Insanely bright.
StraDi
Quote from Jochen53: "... a replacement bulb costs almost €200 and isn't worth it! The bulb's lifespan is significantly reduced by frequent switching on and off. It is particularly sensitive to being switched off and on again whilst still warm. So it's better to leave it on during breaks."
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It doesn’t become any truer just because you keep repeating it!
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Regarding the price:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Natriumlampe-NEU-NEW-Sodium-lamp-Na-10-FL-83977-OSRAM-DUKA-10-DUKA-50-KAISER-/111098961326
or
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Natriumlampe-NEU-NEW-Sodium-lamp-Na-10-FL-83977-OSRAM-DUKA-10-DUKA-50-KAISER-/301220384385?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Dunkelkammerbeleuchtung&hash=item4622224e81
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They are often available at prices ranging from 50 to 70 euros. Furthermore, when used correctly, sodium vapour lamps last a very long time.
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Furthermore, with the SL1 and similar Duka lamps, it is essential to pay attention to the distance. Precisely because they are very bright and have ‘only’ a filter screen in front, there are frequent reports of fogging. At a distance of approx. 1.5 metres and with direct lighting, this ranges from minimal (Ilford Multigrade) to clearly noticeable (ADOX, Foma). With indirect lighting, most papers do not show fogging even after prolonged exposure. With these lamps, it is essential to pay close attention to the distance. The Duka 10/50, for example, can be easily adjusted for brightness and are also quite bright without causing fogging.
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Here you can find information and absorption curves for the Ilford SL1. It’s best to compare and test them yourself.
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427111757603.pdf
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cu ...
Dirk
sputnik
Erm, if
"It is particularly sensitive to being switched off and on again whilst warm. So it’s better to leave it on during breaks."
doesn’t become any truer through constant “rumour-mongering”,
what then of
Quote: “And as the previous speaker already noted: don’t switch it off and on again whilst it’s warm! The bulbs don’t like that very much and repay you with a shorter lifespan.”? :o
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Well, in MY view, that’s simply one and the same thing.
A Splitgrade controller switches the Duka lamp on and off during every measurement, as well as during every main and follow-up exposure!
And stocking up on a few 50–70 euro ‘bargains’ just in case isn’t exactly cheap either.
How much does a fridge bulb cost again? €1? €1.50?
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And OF COURSE you use a very bright lamp like the SL1 indirectly.
The fact that you can do this without any problems is precisely the big advantage.
That way, it’s not just a small, confined area in the darkroom that’s spotlit (with the corresponding shadows), but the entire room is evenly lit, which makes for an extremely relaxed working environment.
I’ve already mentioned that the SL1 isn’t really any use for non-ILFORD papers.
However, the original post clearly mentioned ILFORD MG. ;)
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I find it impractical to recommend an OSRAM sodium vapour lamp like this for a black-and-white darkroom.
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PS: How can you actually tell whether a ‘new’ lamp bought second-hand is really unused and hasn’t already been switched on and off 200 times whilst still warm?
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sibelius
Hello!
First of all, thanks to everyone.
I naturally thought about burning in the Duka – using Splitgrade for the burn-in would be complete nonsense, and it wouldn’t work anyway because of the burn-in time.
I was hoping that Splitgrade wouldn’t be affected by it. If not, then it’s a dead duck, of course.
I’ll just give it a go.
Thanks again
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Peter
sputnik
Of course, you can plug the Duka lamp directly into the mains rather than into the controller.
This doesn’t make any difference to the exposure itself, as long as you’re not working right at the limit of smear resistance (e.g. with very long exposure times + very long development times during lith printing).
However, you might run into difficulties when measuring with the probe, as it’s probably not designed for use with Duka light.
I’d be interested to know why controlling the lamp via the Splitgrade is supposed to be nonsense.
Likewise, why this isn’t supposed to work during re-exposure (I assume that’s what’s meant by ‘burn-in time’).
After all, every Splitgrade controller has always worked this way, and I find it extremely practical and well thought-out.
StraDi
Erm, if
"It is particularly sensitive to being switched off and on again whilst warm. Therefore, it is better to leave it on during breaks.
"
doesn’t become any truer through constant “chatter”,
what then of
Quote: “And as the previous speaker already noted: don’t switch it off and on again whilst it’s warm! The bulbs don’t like that very much and repay you with a shorter lifespan.”
? :o
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Well, in MY view, that’s simply one and the same thing.
A Splitgrade controller switches the Duka lamp on and off during every measurement, as well as during every main and follow-up exposure!
And stashing away a few €50–70 ‘bargains’ just in case isn’t exactly cheap either.
How much does a fridge bulb cost again? €1? €1.50?
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The reference was more to the price quoted for the lamps. Admittedly, it was a bit poorly worded on my part, but it’s clear from the links posted.
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Nevertheless, the argument regarding the on/off cycles should also be viewed objectively and not as a hysterical element in the argument that such a lamp is unsuitable for practical use. I have a Duka 50 from a laboratory clearance sale, which has served me well for a good 10 years in almost daily use... and that with the original NA10FL! I’ve been using another one for a good 5 years now... also with the original NA10FL.
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This may be different with Splitgrade, as there is a need to switch off the Duka lighting during the measurement process... but I have my own opinion on the blessed Splitgrade. With the appropriate – indirect – and regulated setting of the Duka light, this has absolutely no effect on the measurement process. A Duka lamp usually has no place near an enlarger either.?
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I’ve already mentioned that the SL1 is basically useless for non-ILFORD papers.
<p style="color:rgb(36,38,39);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(230,237,240);">However, the original post clearly mentioned ILFORD MG.? ;)
<p style="color:rgb(36,38,39);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(230,237,240);">?
<p style="color:rgb(36,38,39);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(230,237,240);">I find it impractical to recommend an OSRAM sodium vapour lamp for a black-and-white darkroom.
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In any case, I find it impractical to recommend lighting that is tailored to a specific manufacturer’s paper. So if the operator ever feels the need to use paper from other manufacturers, what should they do??
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However, you might run into difficulties when measuring with the probe, as it is unlikely to have been designed for use with Dukalight.
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That is not correct. I would refer to the older Wallner devices with a ‘focusing mechanism’ on the measuring probes. Due to the positioning of the photocell, there is no influence from stray light and therefore no influence from the Duka lighting either. I shan’t comment on how this works with the oh-so-wonderful Splitgrade.
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However, as mentioned above, a Duka lamp has no place near an enlarger. And if the ‘darkroom’ is so small that the Duka light illuminates the entire room, you can dim the light as much as possible – at least with the Duka 10/50. Neither with my old Wallner LMC 100 nor with a newer FEM Kunze (with a small measuring probe) have I experienced any interference with the measurements when the Duka 50 is switched on at a distance of 5 metres from the enlarger.?
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cu ...
Dirk
HenningH
Hello,
The measuring probes from Kindermann (an old analogue model), Bäuerle/Leitz, RHD (Analyser) and also Wallner with a targeting device (which supposedly only measures light falling perpendicular to the probe) all reacted to the darkroom light (red or orange) in my case. Even when the lamp was mounted above the wet area and the measuring probe was in the shadow cast by my body.
It may well be possible to test the devices in such a way that ambient light is taken into account, but in my view this is a source of uncertainty that simply doesn’t need to be there...
Have a lovely Sunday
Henning
sputnik
@ Dirk:
Of course, it would be impractical to recommend an SL1 as a matter of principle. I wouldn’t do that either.
The discussion specifically concerned the parameters set out here.
Namely, the use of ILFORD MG papers and the Heiland Splitgrade Controller.
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I only use the SL1 with ILFORD papers myself. For all other MG papers, red LED lights come on. For FG, there are yellow-green ones.
But of course, anyone who wants to is free to buy a Hans Dampf lamp. ;)
StraDi
Hello,
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The measuring probes from Kindermann (an old analogue model), Bäuerle/Leitz, RHD (Analyser) and also Wallner with a targeting device (which supposedly only measures light striking the probe perpendicularly) all reacted to the darkroom light (red or orange) in my case. Even when the lamp was mounted above the wet area and the measuring probe was in the shadow of my body.
It may be possible to test the devices in such a way that ambient light is taken into account, but in my opinion this is a source of uncertainty that simply doesn’t need to be there...
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Have a lovely Sunday
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Henning
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Namely, the use of ILFORD MG papers and the Heiland Splitgrade Controller.
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That still leaves the question of how to solve the problem individually if you’re not using Ilford Multigrade? I reckon a jack-of-all-trades controller like the Splitgrade from Heiland can work with other papers too?
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I only use the SL1 with ILFORD papers. For all other MG papers, red LED lamps are used. For FG, there are yellow-green ones.
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And is that supposed to be more practical (apart from potential sources of error) than a Duka, which is suitable for all MG papers (and even for RA-4)? Well, everyone can decide that for themselves based on their own workflow.
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To mention a practical alternative:
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http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/de/produkte/2_1_sortiment.asp?w=1431
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That saves you the hassle of the ‘light show’ in the Duka and you even get various filters, depending on the application. It’s very cheap (second-hand), still available new, and works with all MG papers. Wow! Even with Ilford MG :)
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Incidentally, Ilford’s MG paper can also be processed under red light. It is equally desensitised in the long-wave range. Red LEDs typically emit light at a wavelength of approx. 630 nm (sodium vapour lamp: approx. 589 nm). So why on earth do you need an Ilford SL1 specifically for Ilford MG? ;) Consequently, for the processing of MG papers alone, the use of red light (via LED) would also be recommended and significantly more practical. What’s more, they even last longer than a fridge bulb ;) That really puts you on the safe side.
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However, the human eye is not particularly sensitive to long-wavelength light. Assessing contrasts during the development process is therefore only possible with a lot of practice. Likewise, the ‘perceived brightness’ is nowhere near as high (at the same light intensity) as with orange light. For the processed MG paper, however, it is the safest darkroom lighting.
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Then you can also flood your enlarger with red light with peace of mind and, with your lovely Heiland Splitgrade, automatically switch on the Duka lamp whilst measuring. ;)
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cu ...
Dirk
HenningH
Dirk, could you explain the link between laboratory layout and expenditure?
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As I mentioned earlier, the lighting is ‘behind me’. But even if I had a room five metres long, I wouldn’t place the dry and wet areas so far apart.
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Experiences vary so much. However, it depends very much on the ‘layout’ of the darkroom. It is quite amusing, though, how much money is spent on things like split screens, analysers, etc., yet savings are often made on such items. Darkroom lighting has no place on or around the enlarger.
Wolfgg
"Assessing the contrast during the development process is therefore only possible with a great deal of practice"
Anyone who needs to do this is going about it the wrong way. A paper must be fully developed if it is to show its true potential. The best way to achieve this is by developing by time with the emulsion side down, so that you are not tempted to remove the paper from the developer too early if it looks too dark. In that case, the exposure time should be shortened. The darkroom light is not there to check the image during development, but simply to allow you to see what is where and, for example, to ensure you do not accidentally fix it straight after the exposure.
Regards, Wolfgang
sputnik
I couldn’t agree more!
Experienced lab technicians who spent eight hours a day at the enlarger in the 1970s may well have mastered the art of assessing contrast using Dukalight.
For an amateur, for whom every second doesn’t count, that’s complete nonsense. They simply switch the light on to assess it.
Personally, I even blow-dry EVERY(!) test strip first.
Where assessment in the developer really matters is during lith printing.
But even there, it’s 80% experience and intuition, as the prints darken further in the fixer and intermediate intensifying strips or subsequent toners do the rest.
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Incidentally, the Kaiser lamp linked to is pretty much the darkest I’ve ever come across. Pop the red filter in and you might as well be working in the dark.
Why don’t I just do everything with red?
Quite simply: because red is the most unpleasant (no matter how bright). Then comes orange. Then green. But unfortunately, that only works for fixed-grade paper.
And as for the paper:
I use THE paper that suits me best (in my case, 95% Fomatone MG FB) and not every possible type, just because the controller makes it so easy to switch between them with zero effort.
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Incidentally, I think you’re making the same mistake as many others who only know the ‘savior’ from the brochure.
You don’t need to use the thing as an automatic (I’ve never done that), but can simply enjoy the extreme convenience, the brilliant test strip function and, quite simply, the absolute precision and reproducibility when enlarging, whilst otherwise working with it in the traditional way.
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PS: Where you mount a Dukalamp depends first and foremost on the premises and the layout of the space.
There’s no rule of thumb here.
As long as my paper remains smudge-free with my working method, I could even stick the thing to my forehead.
sibelius
Hello everyone!
Ooh, I’ve really stirred things up there.
Dear Sputnik – just to clear up a misunderstanding: by ‘nonsense’ I was of course only referring to running a sodium vapour lamp on the Splitgrade, as the automatic switch-off doesn’t work there; by ‘burn-in time’ I naturally meant the start-up time of the sodium vapour lamp and not the afterglow on the Splitgrade.
So I’m going to try and see if the Splitgrade is affected when the Duka 10 is running continuously at a distance of 3 metres to the side. If so, that Osram thing is dead in the water.
By the way, I’ve already got it on eBay for 50 euros, and I’ll let you know if it causes fogging once I’ve tried it. If it does, then it just won’t work.
Incidentally, I didn’t buy it to monitor the electronic process – of course I also develop by time – ; the red light just gets on my nerves, and I’d find yellow more pleasant. Maybe Dad would then spend more time in the darkroom too....... :rolleyes:
And I’d be genuinely interested – completely without judgement – to hear what Dirk has to say about the Splitgrade. I’m not married to this thing, but after much thought it seemed the only option if I wanted to keep running my black-and-white lab; otherwise I’d have given up – I’ve never been skilled enough to achieve an acceptable result with test strips in a reasonable time, and attempts with other B-meters were a complete failure.
I’m not saying it wasn’t down to me, but that’s just how it was.
€
Thanks again to everyone!
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Regards,
Peter
piu58
> "Assessing contrast during the development process is therefore only possible with a lot of practice"? – Anyone who needs that is doing it wrong.
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You can "push" the paper a little and thus gain half a stop of contrast. This is easier with baryta papers than with PE. For fixed-grade paper, this is the only way to create intermediate gradients.
HenningH
... or follow it up with a dip in Dokumol ...
