Hydroquinone, the EU and the end of analogue photography

bernhardmangelsgmxde · 2014-06-15T11:06:05+00:00

wie man hier (http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2014/06/film-news-adox-interview/#more-15655) lesen kann, erwägt die EU wohl ein Verbot von Hydrochinon, und u...

bernhardmangelsgmxde

As you can read here (http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2014/06/film-news-ADOX-interview/#more-15655), the EU is apparently considering a ban on hydroquinone, and our host expresses the view that this would effectively spell the end of analogue photography. Personally, I wouldn’t like it either, and I would see it primarily as excessive interference... but would that really be the end of analogue photography? In developers, it’s actually quite easily replaceable these days. Whether I’m using A49 and Neutol or Xtol and (reissued) Neutol Plus doesn’t really make that much of a difference, does it?

MirkoBoeddecker

Hydroquinone is found in almost everything. It acts as a stabilizer in films and photographic papers, and as the actual active developing agent in developers. Isoascorbate developers or Caffenol only work in conjunction with the hydroquinone already incorporated into the emulsions. Phenidone without hydroquinone would still develop the film, but we would be very, very limited in terms of the developers’ modes of action. Dimezone is also usually used in combination with hydroquinone. The loss would be very, very painful, and I cannot imagine that photographic products could still be manufactured in the EU after such a move. The ‘impact’ would be too severe. It would be rather like banning the automotive industry from using any fats or oils. Furthermore, the problem is that the people in Finland are really just interested in banning things for the sake of banning them. This EU institution ‘thrives’ on banning substances. Since everything that is genuinely dangerous has long been banned, they are faced with the question of whether to disband or to keep expanding the list of banned substances with increasingly flimsy justifications. Well, what do you think a well-paid EU official will do? If they have a good experience with hydroquinone, there’s nothing to stop them from targeting dimezone and phenidone next. At the moment, I’m not entirely sure what the current situation is. The last I heard was that they were in the process of reviewing the ban. Those affected are naturally alarmed, but we are powerless and the EU is, unfortunately, very arbitrary and undemocratic. They weren’t exactly gentle with the incandescent light bulb industry either. Best regards, Mirko

AchimBauer

Hi Mirko, It was different with incandescent bulbs; the industry was actually pleased about the ban, because energy-saving bulbs were more profitable than the old ones, and they weren’t banned because they were dangerous – in fact, the new ones are far more toxic. We should therefore try to have a sensible discussion with the people at the EU rather than causing a panic. € Regards, Achim

MirkoBoeddecker

So we should try to have a sensible conversation with the people at the EU

? Yes, of course, we’ve tried, but there’s no one to talk to unless you’re a Member of the European Parliament yourself. They say they ‘don’t have to’ talk to us as those affected. So now everyone can either try to get an answer via their MEP or get themselves elected to Parliament :-) Given the potential consequences, I wouldn’t call that scaremongering either. The fact is, the ban is already in the pipeline! It would be more accurate to say we’re in danger of missing the boat... In the interview, I was asked what one thing I’d currently wish for that would help us all. My answer was that things are too complex to boil down to a single point, but if it had to be one thing, then in my view this is currently the most important one. And as the interviewer was from Brussels, I thought it couldn’t do any harm to bring this to the public’s attention a little. Perhaps, by chance, there’s an enthusiastic analogue enthusiast sitting in the European Parliament. Then we’d already have a foot in the door. ? Best regards, ? Mirko

TiMo

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... this is not good at all. If you look at the example of the incandescent light bulb, you know that authorities like this are unpredictable, and any attempt to approach the matter with logic and common sense just makes you want to bang your head against the wall in the face of such sheer stupidity. ? If we also assume that the analogue lobby is likely to be virtually non-existent, or that the industry isn’t exactly rolling in money (as we all know, laws can be bought), this is a truly threatening situation. The greatest threat to the analogue industry from a quarter I would never have expected. ? Germany is, after all, quite strong in chemical production. Now one can only hope that the substances at risk of being banned are also very important for other products, so that the chemical industry, with its strong lobbying power (remember: money can buy laws), will counteract a ban. ? Timgruss

Wolfgg

Hydroquinone is also a medicinal product, so manufacturers of that substance would also be affected, e.g.: ? http://www.arzneimittel.de/hydroquinone-alpha-t-trinkampullen-4373614 ? Without hydroquinone, you can forget about sharp contrasts, or you’d have to come up with substitutes – but who’s still doing that? ? Regards, Wolfgang

u_d

€ <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"> We should therefore try to talk sensibly to the people at the EU

€ Yes, of course, we’ve tried, but there’s no one to talk to unless you’re a Member of the European Parliament yourself. They say they “don’t have to” talk to us as those affected. So now everyone can either try to get an answer via their MEP or get themselves elected to Parliament :-) Given the potential implications, I wouldn’t call this scaremongering either. The fact is, the ban is already in the pipeline! It would be more accurate to say we’re in danger of missing the boat... In the interview, I was asked what one thing I would currently wish for that would help us all. The answer was that things are too complex to be reduced to a single issue, but if it has to be one thing, then in my opinion this is currently the most important one. And since the interviewer was from Brussels, I thought it couldn’t hurt to bring this to the public’s attention a little. Perhaps, by chance, there’s an enthusiastic analogue enthusiast sitting in the European Parliament. Then we’d already have a foot in the door. € Best regards, € Mirko ? </BLOCKQUOTE> If you want to contact your MEP, you need to be able to refer to a relevant reference on the matter. Do you have a reference for that?

bernhardmangelsgmxde

SW photography is a cultural activity, after all; you can’t just ban it like that. Perhaps we should have a word with Harman… they’d probably be just as affected, are a larger company (with 400 jobs, after all) and are based in a country that’s more critical of the EU.

rmrts

If you want to contact your MP, you need to be able to refer to a relevant document in some way. Do you have a reference for that? ? ?

According to this document , which covers the evaluation up to 2014, Italy is responsible for the evaluation of hydroquinone (page 5 of the PDF). The contact details are listed there or: here are the details from the database ( http://echa.europa.eu/information-on-chemicals/evaluation/community-rolling-action-plan/corap-table/-/substance/1519/search/123-31-9/term ) That’s all I’ve found. The "European Chemicals Agency" appears to be in charge. That is where I got the information from. http://echa.europa.eu/ Perhaps this will be of some help. Best regards Reinhold ?

Wolfgg

It would also be interesting to hear the insights of the chemist Franz, who has unfortunately been rather scarce around here of late. Ultimately, this is probably about the extension of REACH: http://www.reach-info.de/ € Addendum: the ban-happy types will soon have their sights set on other phenolic compounds, such as the pyro substances pyrogallol and catechin. Regards, Wolfgang

u_d

€ <BLOCKQUOTE class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="u_d" data-cid="17492" data-time="1402870141"> <DIV> € If you want to contact your MP, you need to be able to refer to a relevant document on the matter. Do you have a reference for that? € € </div> </blockquote> Ultimately, things are going to get even worse. As this document http://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/13628/corap_list_2014-2016_en.pdf ? , silver is currently also being investigated – though in the form of nanoparticles, as far as I understand. Seriously now. With regard to the ‘Initial Concerns’, I can imagine that they want to protect us, as end consumers, from hydroquinone. For example, in the form of developer, which we get our fingers all over. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that, when bound in the emulsions, it’s completely out of the running. According to this document , which covers the evaluation up to 2014, Italy is responsible for the evaluation of hydroquinone (PDF page 5). The contact details are listed there or rather: here are the details from the database ( http://echa.europa.eu/information-on-chemicals/evaluation/community-rolling-action-plan/corap-table/-/substance/1519/search/123-31-9/term ) € That’s all I’ve found. The "European Chemicals Agency" appears to be in charge. That is where I got the information from. http://echa.europa.eu/ € Perhaps this will be of some help. € Best regards Reinhold € € € € € </div> </blockquote>

u_d

It would also be interesting to hear the insights of the chemist Franz, who has unfortunately been rather scarce around here of late. Ultimately, this is probably about the extension of REACH: http://www.reach-info.de/ € Addendum: the ban-happy types will soon have their sights set on other phenolic compounds, such as the pyro substances pyrogallol and catechin. Regards, Wolfgang

If I’ve understood correctly, a substance evaluation must be completed within one year of the publication of the updated CoRAP list. After that, the Italians’ results should actually be available. After all, their review mandate has been running since 2012.

MirkoBoeddecker

A big favour: please don’t all start contacting Dr Attias in Italy now. He’s the only one who drops hints every now and then ;-) We shouldn’t put him off. ? Best regards, ? Mirko

MarcusKaufhold

Unfortunately, I’m also familiar with this Euro-nonsense from a completely different angle (aviation). Once something like this is enshrined in a regulation or a law, it becomes very difficult to change. ? It would be better to take action now. So: websites, Facebook, letters to MPs, etc. ? Unfortunately, that takes effort. ? What I don’t understand: does this also affect manufacturers of X-ray film and microfilm? Surely not every vet’s surgery is going to switch to digital X-rays now? Or are the archives going to do something crazy like storing everything solely on hard drives (which is unreliable in the long term)? Somehow, the Eurocrats only have skin creams in their sights – and have no idea that analogue photography is affected by this? Strange.

TiMo

I suggest we just wait and see. The people who can do something about it first are surely alarmed, and if there’s anything we can do, Mirko will certainly let us know.

WolfgangF

As well as the medical sector – X-rays – the military would also be affected, particularly in the field of aerial image analysis. € That gives us hope, doesn’t it? € Best regards, Wolfgang

KlausWehner

Hydroquinone is a derivative of phenol. Phenols are indeed a problematic group of substances (environment, health). Unfortunately, almost all developing agents are phenol derivatives. € The fact that hydroquinone is currently the focus is probably a question of the quantities produced worldwide. Other developing agents are similarly problematic (or even more so) than hydroquinone. This applies in particular to the class of colour developing agents. € Negative development without hydroquinone is conceivable – but only with limitations. The formulations of the emulsions may need to be adapted to the new developers. € I hope this goes some way towards reassuring you. A ban on hydroquinone would not necessarily spell the end of analogue photography. € However, I would also like to make it equally clear that no stone should be left unturned in preventing such a ban. Analogue photographers urgently need a lobby. € With the fineartforum Paderborn, I have tried to take a step towards bringing analogue photography back into society together. (At the last fineartforum, there was a panel discussion on the topic: What can be done to preserve analogue black-and-white photography. A whole range of concrete possibilities were identified to move closer to this goal). € I believe that such initiatives can really make a difference. I believe that together we can make a difference. (Unfortunately, I am no expert in such administrative matters). However, my experience shows that in a strong and active group, there are always experts on all sorts of specialist topics. € It is in our hands. It requires our joint commitment. € Warm regards from Paderborn Klaus

MirkoBoeddecker

Hello Klaus, ? ?

We may need to adjust the emulsion formulations to suit the new developers.

? ? Exactly! The costs of changing the emulsion formula cannot be covered by the profits from production. We’re not talking about a few thousand euros here; it can quickly run into the millions. Companies in the EU would then have to bear these costs, but they wouldn’t be able to recoup them through price increases, as they are competing with companies based outside the EU that do not have to bear these costs. Consequently, companies based outside the EU would gain a significant competitive advantage. Weighing this against the overall state of the industry and the market, the likely consequence would be that all production is relocated out of the EU. However, this would then only be done for those markets where opportunities are still seen (X-ray, aerial reconnaissance, radiation protection, NDT). I may, of course, be wrong. One could also produce paper with a shelf life of just six months. That would be a great help to the environment. Just as with borax, where a few grams simply had to be phased out, with the result that the far inferior alternatives will now lead to the disposal of thousands of tonnes of photochemical waste in the EU, with the corresponding consequences for waste management. ? No, the most important thing now is to prevent this ban. One would rather not think about the consequences. ? All this EU banning does more harm than good, and I stand by my suspicion that the reasons are of a base nature and that do-goodism is merely a pretext. ? Best regards, ? Mirko

KlausWehner

Mirko, we’re completely on the same page! A ban must be prevented. Even the reversal process described by Wehner wouldn’t work without hydroquinone – that’s obvious. € I’ll be happy to do whatever I can to help prevent a potential ban. € Best regards, Klaus

CPD

Oh dear! Elsewhere, of course, they take a much more relaxed view: € http://www.aphog.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30373 € It’s not without its share of suspicion, at least between the lines. € Bye!

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