Bonderer
So, I often get my film from Foto Feldhege in Hagen; they’ve been around for about 70 years and can source any brand of film you need.
I get my paper and chemicals from Spürsinn, Impex and Lumiere Shop. I’ve tried a wide range of suppliers for my consumables, including two from northern Germany, but I wasn’t happy with them.
I’d never buy anything like that abroad because they don’t pay taxes here, don’t employ staff who contribute to the social security system, and so on. However, I don’t know what I’d do if certain items were only available in, say, the UK.
And as for the prices, of course I get annoyed when the paper gets more expensive with every order, but what can you do? Buy a digital camera and print photos? I won’t have that devilish contraption in my house when I don’t even own a scanner.
People buy cigarettes for €5–6 and blow them up in smoke without batting an eyelid. At the weekend, they fill up their darling child’s tank and drive round the neighbourhood because the child—sorry, the car—needs a proper run.
People spend large sums on those weird DINGDING phones that can do everything and have a flap where a hand pops out. The hand is supposed to scratch your bum when it itches. But four weeks after buying them, they’re already electronic waste because there’s something new out there again, scratching away in 3/4 time. The ratio of production costs to the retail price is nothing short of a money-printing press for shareholders; it’s simply greed.
It’s considered normal to squander a lot of money.
But the moment film, chemicals or paper become more expensive, an outcry goes through the forums, and the downfall of Western civilisation is predicted.
On the web, films are being offered by armchair dealers at prices that would make any businessman’s hair stand on end.
Trying to make a lot of profit on the price is surely the wrong way to go about it. A look at the prices for TriX – where one is trying to undercut the other – only pleases the penny-pinchers, but if the aim is for the residues of the photographic trade and mail-order photo shops to soon become AGFA, then carry on as you are.
“We all want decent pay for the work we do, whatever our profession. We must grant the same to those involved in the development, manufacture or sale of analogue photography products – no more and no less than what should apply to us. Anyone who doesn’t want that should carry on buying products from China that are manufactured under conditions akin to a penal camp – exploitation in its most lucrative form.
And to a certain fellow who wrote that he feels genuinely sick when he sees the prices of photographic paper: give me everything he’s got before he throws up and calls it a day.
bernhardmangelsgmxde
I tend to think less in national terms. We are increasingly living in Europe; to me, whether someone pays taxes and employs people in Germany is not much different from someone paying taxes and employing people in Italy, the Czech Republic or England. Germany also exports enough, so I can outsource the retail services for photographic paper abroad without a guilty conscience, thereby reducing the trade surplus.
I can’t really assess how all this works or how prices are determined. Partly because manufacturers and retailers don’t reveal their hand. For understandable reasons. So I can’t judge whether the prices charged here are reasonable or whether they’re simply too high. That’s why I don’t worry about it too much and approach the matter quite selfishly.
For me, the retailer provides a kind of service. When it comes to food, the service is that fruit, veg, meat, pasta and so on are sourced from the producer and are available just round the corner from me when I need them. In return, the retailer is naturally entitled to a margin. The retailer buys everything on a much larger scale than I do. Otherwise, I’d have to drive quite a long way by car for 5kg of potatoes, milk, pasta and mandarins, and would use up vast amounts of petrol... it would all cost me a fortune, and it would take me quite a long time too. Retailers fill entire lorries and can supply everything at a fraction of the cost. So I get my goods much faster and more cheaply AND the retailer makes a profit too. It’s a win-win, and the system works well.
If retailers now have to mark up certain products so much that it would be much cheaper for me to drive straight to the manufacturer or wholesaler and buy my goods directly from them, then retailers are actually superfluous, and I can provide the service better myself. After all, I don’t hire a service provider to make my coffee in the morning if that service provider can’t do it better, more conveniently or faster than I can myself.... so if, on my way to the underground, I had to make a big detour for a coffee to go, or regularly wait out in the cold for longer than it would take me at home to make a nice hot cup of coffee in the warmth and tidy everything up, and the coffee to go didn’t even taste any better, and on top of that was more expensive, why on earth would I put myself through that? A takeaway coffee has to be on the way, quick to get, and shouldn’t be too expensive either, otherwise it’s pointless.
As for photographic paper: Of course there are advantages to ordering in Germany; delivery is cheaper and the retailer speaks the same language. I’ve ordered a few times before and know that everything’s fine, or I can more easily check in advance whether a retailer might be a bit of a dodgy character. So I wouldn’t start ordering from abroad just for the price of two or three packets of cigarettes or a few beers in the pub. Then the postage from abroad is even more expensive... so the retailer in Germany has a certain margin where they can charge more compared to abroad, and I still see advantages for myself if I order in Germany.
I have to say, though, that I no longer see any advantage with some products. If, for a relatively small order, I have to pay significantly more than the cost of two or three packets of cigarettes on top of the €19 shipping from abroad... then German retailers are clearly unable to present the service of making the product available to me in a way that offers me any advantages, and I naturally consider ordering from abroad myself.
Morte
Hello Analoger,
I would agree with a great deal of what you wrote.
I see it the same way when it comes to similar things in everyday life. For example: at the moment, I don’t have any children, a wife or elderly parents to support. Surprisingly, my rent is still quite cheap. So, as far as my wallet is concerned, it makes no difference whether I buy the cheap mozzarella at Netto – which is white and mushy, as you’d expect, but also has no real flavour – or whether I go to another (super)market and buy proper buffalo mozzarella there. The price difference is about a euro, but the difference in taste is like night and day. That one euro really doesn’t matter.
Similarly, it doesn’t really matter whether a roll of film costs 3 euros or 5 euros – if I’m only buying one or two rolls.
With paper, however, it’s a different story. I’m not talking about small formats, which I hardly ever use anyway. 10x15 is for photo albums – and I don’t take photos for that.
However, if a box of 30x40 baryta paper costs 150 euros, that really hurts. It’s not that I don’t think it’s worth it. Or that I’m not in favour of manufacturers and their staff keeping their jobs and being paid a decent wage. I actually think that’s very important.
But I simply don’t have those 150 euros. And smaller packs are only available for very few types. I can’t afford even larger formats at all. Everyone can work out for themselves what that means for exhibitions and the like. I once put on an exhibition consisting entirely of 24x30 (DIN A4) prints. I didn’t feel bad about it, as I’d recently been to a major Emil Otto Hopp? exhibition where nothing but contact prints (large format) were on display, and I thought it was brilliant.
Nevertheless, I received numerous comments, which were surely meant quite innocently: why were all the pictures so small?
That really got to me. I was met with nothing but astonishment when I said I couldn’t afford larger photographic paper. When people think of a print, they just think of drugstore prices of 15 cents. And from exhibitions, people are used to seeing only giant formats. Those make an impression almost automatically, of course. A well-known photographer—I can’t remember which one—said: ‘Many photographers hide boring pictures behind large formats.’ The quality of a picture only really shows when it works as a postcard.
What I mean is: constant cost-cutting and being stingy in the wrong places is just as uncommercial as burning money.
Still, I too sigh when things get more expensive again. Because that simply makes my artistic possibilities even more limited.
grommi
Thank you, namir and Morte, for your nuanced comments, delivered in a polite tone; I agree with the substance of what you have said.
Bonderer
As I’ll be taking a permanent holiday – known as retirement – in about eight years’ time, I definitely prefer domestic companies. They contribute to the fund from which I will soon receive my income, and even though I think highly of Europe, neither Italian nor British employers or employees pay into my pension; only German employers and employees do. However, if you are younger and such a prospect is still a long way off, you will surely think differently about it.
As for formats, I only use 13x18 for gifts and to show off, 20x25 and 24x30, and more rarely 30x40; as for exhibitions, that’s not my thing, but an acquaintance at the Hagen Museum was heavily sponsored by various patrons, so it cost him nothing, and exhibitions at places like savings banks are said to be fairly cost-neutral.
Of course, €150 for 50 sheets isn’t exactly cheap, but they’ll still be there in 50 years’ time and lovely to look at. The question is always: what is my passion worth to me? And when the children were still small and our income was lower, I too didn’t buy some things that I buy now, but every family man has to go through that.
Incidentally, I’ve also seen exhibitions featuring only 6x6–6x9 contact prints from the early 1900s, and the visitors were very impressed; it’s not always just about size, but I have great respect for anyone who puts on an exhibition themselves. I wouldn’t want to do that.
Exposing one’s own achievements to public hostility takes real courage.
Let’s be honest, people will always find something to criticise about such an event, even if it’s just the size.
And if Morte’s work was judged by some solely on the size of the prints rather than the quality of the photography, it just goes to show how little people value the work of others. Here, too, I sense that ‘stinginess is cool’ mentality and the naysayers who, when they can find nothing else to criticise, get worked up about the size of a photograph. With all due respect, that is more than pathetic.
bernhardmangelsgmxde
The question is, of course, how much of the extra cost you have to pay here for certain types of photographic paper actually goes towards the pension fund. It would probably be far more effective to buy abroad and transfer the money saved to the pension fund.
I don’t worry too much about my pension when I’m shopping, not just because it’s still quite a long way off, but also because my generation doesn’t have all that much to expect from it... and it’s better to try, as far as possible, to put something aside ourselves. 50 sheets of Ilford 24×30 cm? €62 when buying here from the host, €37 in the UK. I pay about €20 more per box if I order a few other things as well. How many euros will be paid out in statutory social security contributions for employees for this one box? It would have to be 100 for the 20 euros I have to pay extra to go entirely into the pension scheme. But since the shop only gets about 55€ of the 67€, the photographic paper itself costs something, shop rent has to be paid, postage has to be cross-subsidised... not to mention the TV licence fee – profit has to be generated somewhere... I consider it out of the question that more than 10 euros of the salary would be spent on labour costs for a 67-euro purchase of photographic paper (it’s probably much less). That would amount to (really at most) 2 euros for the pension fund. Let’s just say, out of solidarity with the pension fund, I don’t need to do that. Saving 20 euros, and voluntarily paying 10 of that into the pension fund, helps the pension fund much more; I’m building up pension entitlements and still have 10 euros left to pay off my little house. I could also use the 20 euros to pay a tradesperson for 20 minutes, of which at least 5 euros would go towards their wages, and the pension fund would then get at least 1 euro from that.
TiMo
My money goes to places where I know it will be put towards interesting photography projects.
My money doesn’t go to manufacturers seeking a monopoly, but to their competitors.
bernhardmangelsgmxde
Of course, it’s not just the price that matters when it comes to a product. If a manufacturer is committed to what they do, that’s certainly a plus.
Ilford also has some interesting photography projects. They already have a full range, so fewer new products are coming onto the market. And Ilford is also committed to analogue photography.
As consumers, we have no interest in a monopoly. So it’s nice that, when it comes to paper, there’s Foma and ADOX as well as Ilford. One of the biggest problems a monopoly poses for consumers is simply that it can set prices as it pleases. But the oligopoly seems to be managing that quite well here in Germany, at least when it comes to paper...
€
Of course, I’d have my reservations if, for example, APX 100/400 were to make a comeback... but if they were then to cost 40% more than FP4 and HP5 do now, and the latter were to become 80% more expensive in German shops (Kodak and Foma shouldn’t be entirely forgotten in this context either), then my delight at new products on the market would be somewhat dampened.
€
I’ve noted with satisfaction that when placing a small order for photographic paper from, say, MCP in Germany, I no longer have to pay more (or not much more) than if I were to order Ilford in England. And films are cheaper here too. The small-scale consumer of standard materials is provided with an equivalent alternative on similar terms, which is something at least. I’d just prefer it if, when making my purchasing decision, I weren’t so heavily steered away from one product and towards another by the pricing...
Anyway, I have to respect the achievement of getting production up and running in such a short time and being able to offer good products at competitive prices, especially in a shrinking market. As for importing Ilford photographic paper, I don’t want to dictate to anyone what terms and conditions should apply. I’ll just have a look around for alternative sources if necessary.
Wolf_XL
...well, the world isn’t quite that simple... It’s simply naive to believe that only buying locally is a good deal... If my British dealer is doing a good turnover, he might, for example, buy a new Sprinter from Mercedes to transport the goods to the post office. As world champions of exports, we in particular would do well to let our neighbours earn a few euros too, so that they can afford goods ‘Made in Germany’ from their profits...
MirkoBoeddecker
But the oligopoly seems to be managing that quite well, at least when it comes to paper here in Germany...
€
€
You’re working on completely false assumptions, and I also believe that the current discussion regarding petrol stations has been based on false assumptions. After all, the Cartel Office has backed down.
Prices there are the same because they represent the absolute lowest end of what is feasible. In principle, it’s already too little, and the leaseholders can only survive by selling kiosk items. They all lose money on petrol sales, but are forced to go along with this madness, as otherwise they wouldn’t sell any petrol at all.
It’s been much the same in the photography market for over 10 years, and that’s why it has wiped out 80% of manufacturers and retailers.
You don’t seriously believe that you can produce such a range today at 1996 prices, do you?
Production costs are now many times higher, yet prices have barely risen when adjusted for inflation.
For years now, there has been a huge party here at the consumer’s expense, during which manufacturers’ and retailers’ margins have been eroded.
Every manufacturer has, at least once, gone through de facto insolvency or an insolvency-like special write-down.
They now produce under unsustainable conditions that no longer allow for replacement investments or product development.
Retail margins are a world away from what was standard during the heyday of analogue photography.
Between 2006 and 2010, most retailers made losses (we did too).
Every market player I know is ‘for sale’. Anyone who fancies getting involved in this market: step forward!
Today, we are all teetering on the brink. In Germany, films are not offered ‘cheaply’ but under ‘precarious circumstances’ at a de facto loss.
Paper is not ‘oligopolistically overpriced’ but represents the bare minimum necessary to enable distribution.
It is far more labour-intensive to map out a paper matrix with sizes, finishes and the price-volume ratio than to deal with a few films.
Yet everyone involved
earns
significantly less than they did 15 years ago – in fact, almost nothing at all.
Competition works extremely well in a market with an infinite oversupply, falling demand and set-up costs for the consumer that are linked exponentially to production volumes.
But as soon as we see that one of the players dares to raise the price slightly, we naturally follow suit.
We’ve been dreading payday every month for nearly 10 years now.
We don’t adjust our prices to line our own pockets, but to make it through to the month after next.
€
The reason Ilford paper is cheaper in England is that the pound has fallen and Ilford supplies the English market
directly
on preferential terms. We have to go through a middleman and are not allowed to buy Ilford directly.
They take into account that the English don’t earn any more when their currency falls. This naturally creates tensions with other countries that aren’t supplied on such preferential terms. As long as Ilford wants these differences, they will persist.
We gain nothing from this – on the contrary, we hardly sell any Ilford paper at all. I cannot offer it any cheaper, as I would make a loss on every pack (the remaining trade margin does not cover the costs). It would then be better to cease trading and save on costs.
What we can do, however,
is
make our own-brand products attractive
by cutting out the usual middlemen
.
That’s what we’re doing. Instead of Multigrade IV, we have EasyPrint, and instead of Warmtone FB, we have Variotone.
Both papers can easily stand up to a price comparison with the UK.
€
Best regards,
€
Mirko
MirkoBoeddecker
However, as the shop only receives around €55 of the €67, the photographic paper itself costs money, the shop rent has to be paid, postage has to be cross-subsidised... not to mention the TV licence fee – profit has to be generated somewhere... I consider it out of the question that more than €10 of the cost of a €67 purchase of photographic paper would be spent on labour costs (it is probably much less).
?
In the above example, our gross margin (gross margin on the net amount) is around 29%. About 65% of that goes towards wages (i.e. 55 × 0.29 × 0.65 = €10.37), with the residue going towards rent, interest and ‘defending the organisation against the administrative authorities’*.
At 29%, we’re not yet making an operating profit. We’re still slightly in the red. It’s not possible to allocate this precisely, though – to do so, you’d have to calculate the minutes spent on each item.
Incidentally, we buy at a higher price than our English counterpart sells for. However, it’s only a tiny bit more expensive, so freight wouldn’t be worth it.
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Best regards,
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Mirko
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[size=4]* This item is rising year on year. It’s no longer fun to be a small or medium-sized business in Germany.[/size]
[size=4]We’re bearing the full brunt of over-regulation. The big players fight for exemptions, and the very small ones are spared because they’d otherwise go under immediately.[/size]
[size=4]Just one example among thousands: we now pay more for the
quarterly maintenance of a pointless
fire alarm bell, as required by the building authorities, than we did for
a month’s rent 10 years ago
![/size]
[size=4]Just imagine that![/size]
[size=4]We installed the truly useful smoke
detectors voluntarily. They cost €9.99 at Conrad and have been working perfectly – without any maintenance – for 5 years.[/size]
[size=4]If you’re against cartels, mismanagement and monopolistic structures, then take a look at the state-affiliated sector and, in particular, the construction industry![/size]
[size=4]That is money being wasted on a massive scale, and it’s politically mandated because the legislator’s cousin stands to profit from it.[/size]
[size=4]We all end up footing the bill for this. Firstly through higher prices, and secondly because the money is squeezed out of the businesses that actually create real value in such a way that nothing is left over for pay rises afterwards.[/size]
[size=4]Do you know why the airport isn’t being finished? Not because Wowereit is such a clown, but because the state, as the client, can no longer even meet its own building regulations, which have got completely out of hand![/size]
[size=4]They were absolutely certain they’d get an
exemption for themselves (keyword: provisional acceptance) and just because that didn’t work out, the airport is now standing empty.[/size]
[size=4]So... phew... I’ll start learning Polish and now: carry on! :D [/size]
Olivinyl
Hello Mirko,
I couldn’t agree more with your comments on the topic of ‘the construction industry and small and medium-sized enterprises’!
Even small “socially oriented” organisations run by the state or local authorities don’t function properly, as regulations and requirements make their work unnecessarily difficult and incur more costs than the organisation can recoup through its services (in my case: care, accommodation and youth work).
It’s all very sad :-(
Best wishes, Oliver
AchimBauer
Hi Mirko,
?
If you’re fed up with public works projects here in Stuttgart, you can join the protest every Monday evening.
It’s not about an airport, mind you, but a modern, supposedly high-performance underground TV tower—er, I mean railway station. Even backwater villages 60 km away are being made to contribute to the funding, even though there’s just one bus a day to the nearest station in the morning and one back in the evening. And it’s got something to do with photography too, because if you take photos of the building site, you’re occasionally turned into JPGs and BMPs by the security guards with their DSLRs and long lenses.
But to get back to the actual topic: even though this project is costing me a lot of money as a taxpayer and a rail customer – money I’d much rather invest in analogue photography – given today’s complex markets, I wouldn’t even know where I could spend it in a politically correct way. It used to be different; I had my regular shop where I bought 95% of what I needed – everything was sourced, the advice was customer-focused, and 98% of the customers were regulars. There was always time for a personal chat, even about private matters, and it wasn’t given up because there was no longer any profit to be made, but because the lease was terminated and the owner had long since passed retirement age. Back then, I didn’t know which corporation was making a profit either, but in that shop, the money was invested in my favour.
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Regards, Achim
TiMo
Well, Mirko. Tough luck! The average Joe doesn’t take on big corporations and institutions. He’d rather take his frustration out on small businesses and insists on having every penny accounted for to prove you’re not living a life of luxury at others’ expense. You can see this utterly embarrassing discussion in the other forum.
Your patience is remarkable. It’s a shame you have to waste your time on this sort of thing when it could be put to more productive use.
bernhardmangelsgmxde
Yes, but there are also customers who are completely above such things as prices.
?
I don’t know, am I being paranoid when I wonder why photographic paper suddenly costs almost twice as much as it did five years ago, and why identical products in Germany sometimes cost two-thirds more than in England (which is, after all, still in the EU)?
?
You didn’t need to do the maths for me. (I just thought the bit about pensions was a bit of a stretch...) I find it interesting that apparently so much goes into staff salaries. I can’t really get my head round the margin and when you start making a profit and all that anyway. In any case, thanks for the effort!
?
The takeaway is:
1. Retail prices in Germany can’t really be any cheaper for Ilford,
2. because Ilford doesn’t want them to be.
3. Impex can better supply its customers with photographic paper produced in England, either manufactured in-house or sold under its own brand.
MirkoBoeddecker
The conclusion is:
1. Retailers in Germany can’t really get Ilford products any cheaper,
2. because Ilford won’t let them.
3. Impex is better able to supply its customers with photographic paper produced in England, either manufactured in-house or sold under its own brand.
That’s right!
When I wonder why photographic paper suddenly costs almost double what it did five years ago
Where is that the case? ADOX costs 30% more, which works out at just under 6% per year – roughly 3% above the actual inflation rate and, given the decline in production, represents a very small increase indeed. In any case, less than the competition.
The differences between England and here average around 20–25% for paper, of which about 7% is attributable to freight costs and the residue goes to intermediaries. To be fair, freight costs would need to be taken into account in any comparison.
In the other forum, of course, the average was deliberately not posted; instead, an exclusive outlier figure was used to heighten the ‘drama’.
ThomasPauly
I was in London this week and came across a shop there that sells plenty of ADOX and Rollei products – as well as pretty much everything else on the film market. Anyone who fancies reliving that heart-warming feeling of standing in front of metres upon metres of well-stocked shelves full of roll film, 35mm and sheet films should add this shop to their list of must-see tourist attractions: West End Cameras, 160a Tottenham Court Road, London W1T 7ML.
They also have an online shop:
www.westendcameras.co.uk, but the range doesn’t look particularly cheap to me (the exchange rate is currently just over €1.20 to the pound) – even for Ilford products.
Conclusion:
1. It’s not just us contributing to the job market in Mobberley, but the British are also contributing to those in Bad Saarow, Hamburg and Mortsel.
2. There is probably no reason to envy our British colleagues because of unfair price advantages.
3. In the early 90s, I used to get APX 100 in own-brand packaging for 2.10 (DM, mind you). I suppose I’ll just have to accept that I can’t get that there anymore.
tepe
bernhardmangelsgmxde
€
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ipsBlockquote">
The conclusion is:
1. Retail prices in Germany can’t really get any cheaper for Ilford,
2. because Ilford doesn’t want them to.
3. Impex is better able to supply its customers with photographic paper produced in England, either manufactured in-house or sold under its own brand.
That’s right!
When I wonder why photographic paper suddenly costs almost double what it did five years ago
Where is that the case? ADOX costs 30% more, which is just under 6% per year – roughly 3% above the actual inflation rate and, given the decline in production, represents a very small increase indeed. In any case, less than the competition.
The differences between England and here average around 20–25% for paper, of which about 7% is attributable to freight costs and the residue goes to intermediaries. To be fair, one would have to take freight costs into account when making a comparison.
In the other forum, of course, they deliberately didn’t post the average but an exclusive outlier figure to heighten the ‘drama’.
€
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, sorry, I meant Ilford, not ADOX. I’ve got the 11/2008 catalogue to hand (so a good five years ago). Historical prices for ADOX 24x30 paper, 50 sheets (or is that an odd size?)
€
Easy Print? 24.95
MCP 34.51
Variotone 2x 26.76
€
MCC wasn’t available back then. At least for the ADOX papers produced in England, this looks more like a doubling to me than a 30% increase. (Of course, the reality lies somewhere in between.)
MirkoBoeddecker
MCC wasn’t around back then. At least as far as the ADOX papers produced in England are concerned, to me it looks more like a doubling than a 30% increase. (Of course, the truth lies somewhere in between.)
The 30% referred to MCP, which remained stable in price for five years. Over in the other forum, someone got very worked up about it and accused us of all sorts of nonsense.
Variotone: Yes, that has become more expensive. That’s how Ilford wants it. But it’s still cheaper than Ilford Warmton.
bernhardmangelsgmxde
€
Variotone [...] is still cheaper than Ilford Warmton.
€
... in Germany.
In the UK: 50 sheets of MGW FB 24x30cm: £69.90 (~€86.50) – the same quantity of Variotone in Germany: €97.58. Still the cheaper option for the average consumer in Germany, though.
