moma
Dear colleagues,
I’m new here – though I’m an old hand.
I’ve dusted off my Duka after 20 years.
Everything’s working again, except for one thing.
Drying ADOX Baryt (high-gloss).
I’d like to do it on glass, but after endless searching online and a few attempts, I haven’t managed to get the sheets (18x24) to come off the glass plate.
I’ve cleaned it thoroughly, wiped it down with spirit, placed paper (soaked in washing-up liquid) on top, scraped it lightly (and firmly) and waited.
With a puddle of spirit, without (dry puddle of spirit).
Even with a light emulsion of oil on the glass (which gave the best result so far) – it still didn’t fall off by itself.
Either stuck like concrete or clinging with a squelch – it never just fell off.
We did this every day during my training (though on chrome plates and heaters).
Does anyone know anything?
Best regards for now
Matthias
Gast
A few days ago, I came across a really long thread on this topic in the parallel forum; perhaps the discussion there might be helpful.
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Link:
http://www.hobbyphoto-forum.de/t1478f66-Die-kalte-Hochglanztrocknung-von-baryta papern.html
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and this:
http://www.hobbyphoto-forum.de/t6528f2-Hochglanz-heiss-und-kalt.html
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I hope that’s OK :-)
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OLaf
moma
Thanks, dear Olaf
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I’ve practically ‘memorised’ these links already.
But they haven’t really helped.
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Somehow it all fizzles out.
It worked wonderfully for one person – for another, only half-way (like me) – and the next one gave up after his glass specialist told him something about different glass surfaces.
Another one wanted to write everything down but didn’t.
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I can’t believe that ‘liquid’ gelatine flows into the pores of the glass to set there, because that’s what it would imply if one were to believe the incomplete results from these links.
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I’m more inclined to think of chemical principles – which are also mentioned there (treating a chrome plate with soda (?) before first use).
I can’t recall where I read that – but I found it far more remarkable than the surface theory.
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Perhaps I’ll tinker a bit more with my oil technique (oil-in-water principle)
Extra Virgin and such
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;-)
jochen53
Hello,
I think I once read in some old books on enlarging that the wetting agent plays a crucial role, even with the high-gloss films used in dry presses. Agents based on ox bile were apparently particularly effective. I’m sure you can’t get anything like that anymore.
Gast
moma
Dear Jochen
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While having a browse through the links above, I also came across Ochsengalle.
I didn’t take it all that seriously.
That would also be the ‘chemical’ solution I had in mind.
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Something like that does exist.
I’ve seen/read about DIY versions and I also came across it in a shop somewhere.
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I’ll have a look into it.
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(... and I’ll definitely keep this thread up to date)
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Thanks
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Matthias
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PS: Hey Wolfgang – that was quick :-)
moma
I got some ox gall yesterday.
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Cleaned the glass pane (washing-up liquid + methylated spirits). Condition: practically dry
Soaked the baryta in an ox gall bath, applied it and scraped it off. Also dabbed it dry with kitchen paper.
Placed the plate at an angle against the wall.
Checked after an hour. The top edge is coming away. About 2 cm. Yeah!
Another 2 hours: the bottom edge too, about 2–3 cm.
Peeled off the top and bottom voluntarily.
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I then rotated the plate 90 degrees overnight (so the peeled-off streaks were lying on the right and left) and placed it against the wall.
(some strange thought prompted me to do this)
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This morning:
Nothing happened. Same as yesterday evening. The middle is still stuck. Nothing was on the table.
It was possible to peel it off – though with a slight shell-like crack.
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The theory:
The weight of the sheet itself (perhaps also some internal tension – who knows?), which initially helped it peel away from the top, was no longer present in the case of the 90-degree rotation.
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Hope springs eternal.
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Next step:
Same as before – just leave it alone and fight the frustration. Distract myself with something else
(as you can tell: we’re sitting here in Hesse)
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Plan B:
If that doesn’t work either, the bathroom mirror will be unscrewed.
The theory behind this:
The gelatine layer wants to develop in the dark – or have relatives within sight (silver).
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(to be continued)
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:)
moma
24 hours later
I ran two tests in parallel.
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One with glass and one with a mirror.
The same procedure.
This time I left them as they were (didn’t turn them or anything).
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Result:
The edge came away, the centre remained stuck.
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I was able to peel it off carefully by hand without cracking the shell.
No pitting =0
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So it might be good enough for a birthday present.
It’s not practical, though.
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Next test: hardening bath
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Best wishes
CPD
Hello!
I’ve had the impression for quite some time now that high-gloss drying doesn’t work as well with today’s papers as it did back in the early 1980s. Something must have changed, because I used to manage high-gloss drying without any problems many years ago. By the way, we used bathroom mirrors for cold drying; our lecturer had managed to ‘snag’ a few dozen of them on some occasion.
I wish you every success!
Best regards!
CP
moma
Hi CP
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Thanks for your encouraging words.
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<P style="margin-left:0px;">The bit about the hardener has me feeling positive.
<p style="margin-left:0px;">I’ll let you know when the material arrives.
<p style="margin-left:0px;">?
<p style="margin-left:0px;"> :)
moma
Not here yet.
CPD
Hello!
I found something else on another forum that might be helpful. But you might already be familiar with that post.
http://forum.phototec.de/read.php?3,213199,214297#msg-214297
Bye!
moma
Hello
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Thanks for your post.
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As I mentioned at the start: I think I’ve memorised everything there is to find on the (German) internet on this subject.
And it turned out to be surprisingly scant.
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During my apprenticeship about 40 years ago, we used to do this every day (without any fuss; just Agepon (wetting agent, spirit and a hot chrome plate with a linen cloth).
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My aim now is to bring this method back into common use. Without all the science and alchemy.
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The hardener I ordered got lost on the motorway and I now have to navigate the bureaucratic jungle to get hold of it.
(I’ll report back once this test is done).
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My personal opinion is that it comes down to the thickness and composition of the current emulsion and that they might be able to be ‘pimped’ if necessary.
We’ll see.
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And best regards,
Matthias
sputnik
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My personal opinion is that it comes down to the thickness and texture of the current emulsion, and that you might be able to ‘pimp’ it if necessary.
We’ll see.
No. Pimping photographic paper isn’t a good idea. ;-)
moma
oops
moma
The soup has finally arrived.
The result will be revealed shortly in this theatre.
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:-)
moma
Right then, everyone.
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So the hardener has reached its home (Tetenal).
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I soaked a finished 18x25 MCC ADOX print in a mixture (25ml/l as specified) for about 10 minutes, rinsed it briefly and, this time, pressed it onto a pool of methylated spirits using a roller squeegee. (Up until now, I’d always just used a squeegee to squeeze it out – obviously, the pressure isn’t that high with that).
I placed the glass plate (standard 12mm) at an angle against the radiator and went out for dinner.
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When I returned
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the print lay [color=#ff0000]exquisitely[/colo
glistening on the floor.
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Now all that remains is to test whether it was the roller squeegee or truly the chemicals (unfortunately no specific details on the bottle – but it’s likely to be formalin or similar compounds).
But anyone can do that for themselves.
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Theory regarding the roller press:
Both the fibres and the gelatin in the baryta swell and stretch when wet. The pressure applied by the roller press during application stretches the material widthways and lengthways, and it contracts again as it dries. This causes it to detach from the glass plate (hence the cracking sound reported in various forums).
Accordingly, I’m running another test today without hardener.
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For those who prefer an alternative, here’s a recipe for hardener that I found during my research:
Dissolve 100 g of potassium alum in 1000 ml of water. Add 3/4 of the liquid, sprinkle in the potassium alum, and then top up to one litre.
(Thanks to the author)
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I also found the advice that – if the print has been hardened after fixing/rinsing or after toning – the hardener should be rinsed out again for 15 minutes (Tetenal is acidic) (shelf life).
I also found the tip to add the hardener either to the intermediate bath (which prolongs the fixing) or to the fixer (although I read somewhere that the fixer should not be acidic in this case, as the hardener already is (and the solution might then be suitable for dissolving corpses)).
It should also be noted that cross-linking before fixing makes any subsequent toning more difficult (staining, etc.).
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I wish you every success and thank you for your keen interest.
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:)
TR
Thank you very much for sharing your findings! Very interesting.
moma
OK, I’ll be fair.
It worked.
But only as long as I hadn’t properly rinsed out the hardener chemicals.
If you do proper washing, it sticks again.
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STOP ORDERING HARDENER!
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I’ve got a new trick.
It looks promising and works entirely without any chemical additives.
Should also work with all brands of baryta paper.
No more ghosting – no more waves.
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Starting with limited sizes for now
Matthias
moma
For anyone who wants to know:
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- no ox gall
- no hardener
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... it’s chrome plating.
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I know nothing about the chrome foils people sometimes mention (in connection with heat dryers).
But I do know about metal plates that are chrome-plated (electroplating).
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I used to have a copper one for photographing chips with reflections.
There is no double reflection on chrome (as there is on mirrors or glass).
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The same plate dries paper prints to a fine high gloss without sticking.
Just clean it (washing-up liquid and methylated spirits) and off you go with the good old plate.
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Merry Christmas to you all.
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:-)
