Morte
Hello on Easter Sunday,
As I don’t have any eggs to hand, I’d like to try toning some photos for the first time today. I have a bottle of Adox selenium toner in front of me. Before I venture to experiment with different times and dilutions, however, I’d like to ask two questions first:
There’s a discrepancy between the label on the bottle and the text on the FOTOIMPEX website. The bottle says:
At a dilution of 1+5, an increase in maximum density is also achieved.
Dilution for toning: 1+10 to 1+25
Dilution for image stabilisation: 1+50 to 1+200
In the shop, it says:
for toning 1+20 to 1+50
for image stabilisation only 1+100 to 1+400
I’m particularly interested in toning and increasing the maximum density. But where do I start: 1+5, or 1+10, or 1+20? And is there no increase in density with the latter two dilutions? And what about 1+5 – does that not tone, as the bottle implies? Or what’s the situation?
The second question is very brief: how economical and stable is such a mixture with dilution? I assume you don’t throw it away after just one toning session.
I’d appreciate some clarifying answers! Thanks!
Morte
Wolfgg
Hi Morte,
Everyone’s still hunting for eggs.
If in doubt, go by what’s written on the bottle.
Just take a small, developed test strip of paper with solid black ink, prepare a small amount of solution at a 1:5 ratio, dip only half the strip in as per the instructions, rinse, dry and check the result. Then perform dilution to 1+10 and do the same with another strip. Perform further dilution if necessary. Then you’ll know exactly what you like and what suits your paper.
The prepared solution lasts for years. It’s used up when the toning time noticeably lengthens.
Regards, Wolfgang
piu58
I use a 1+10 solution. This allows you to significantly deepen the maximum density. The intensity of the effect can be adjusted by varying the toning time, which ranges from 30 seconds to 5 minutes depending on the paper. Selenium toner lasts for ages (years).
ultra8
I use selenium toner at dilutions of 1:20 to 1:40. With modern papers, this can affect the contrast within 30 seconds to 2 minutes, meaning the blacks become deeper. However, there is still plenty of scope for sulphur toning.
Morte
First of all, thank you very much for your replies.
I’ve now started to experiment with a 1:5 dilution. My initial impression is that the Fomabrom I’m using reacts relatively little with the toner. As I have read that the developer also plays a role, I have used prints that I developed with Adotol Konstant, Neutol WA and Neutol NE. I will compare them tomorrow, once everything has dried.
An experiment with Fomatone (PE) produced quite striking results, which is not surprising. A dark chocolate tone, which is at least nicer than the usual sepia.
The bottle lists recommendations for warm-tone and cool-tone papers. Fomabrom is neither of these. So there you are. This is also a problem in various other places: most papers, for example at FOTOIMPEX, but also elsewhere, are described as neutral-tone papers. It is rare to come across a genuine warm- or cool-tone paper. It is therefore surprising that such distinctions are readily made with developers, etc. ...
Overall, I would have liked a bit more documentation in the ‘instructions for use’, because on your first attempt you really are left floundering, especially when the discrepancies mentioned above crop up in the description. Of course, one cannot and should not expect recipes for every type of paper, but what’s written on the bottle is rather sparse. After all, this isn’t just a fixer or something like that.
Enough grumbling: I’m looking forward to the comparison tomorrow.
Have a lovely evening, etc.
Morte
piu58
> It’s all rather sparse, what’s written on the bottle
But there really isn’t much to say about it. The tonal effect simply depends on the paper and the time, and you can see that for yourself. What more is there to say?
Regarding the papers: Warm-tone papers have a fine grain, making them the equivalent of low-speed film. The silver grains have a much larger surface area and are therefore much more receptive to the toning process. Standard papers, and PE papers in particular, show very little effect: the blacks become slightly deeper, by about half a contrast grade, and the image tone shifts towards a slight violet, which is usually only visible in a direct comparison. Warm-tone papers shift from violet towards brown-red; this is very distinct.
TR
I also use this selenium toner for my Fomabrom paper.
Any increase in maximum density is only marginal. To notice this, you really need to examine two (dried!) pieces of paper in the light for quite some time. It looks different when wet, but the Fomabrom ‘tightens up’ as it dries. The green cast, which can occur with a warm-tone developer, also largely disappears as the paper dries. The selenium toner completely neutralises this green cast.
As toning in the sense of a colour shift, selenium toner is certainly not suitable for neutral-tone papers such as Fomabrom. Who wants magenta-coloured images?
However, very nice results are achieved with “Lithen”. Here I use the old Orwo paper. The yellowish ochre transforms into a rather lovely brown in the selenium toner. Here, the blacks also “tighten up” clearly.
I haven’t noticed any differences with different dilutions and temperatures: the more diluted the solution, the longer the process takes. I dilute it 1+29 – with this, my Fomabrom takes about 2 minutes before that awful magenta cast sets in. This solution lasts perhaps two weeks. After that, I have to prepare a new one.
Best regards,
Thomas
michael-kielgmxnet
If you really want to achieve a significant increase in the maximum black density, gold toner is the better—but also more expensive—choice. It allows you to achieve a deep, cool black on any paper. Warm-tone papers and lith prints take on a blue-black hue.
I only use selenium toner to improve the longevity of prints and to remove the green cast from Fomatone. To do this, I tone in a 1:15 dilution for about 1 to 2 minutes.
Morte
Hello everyone,
I’ve just compared the results and I’m quite pleased. As I neither expected nor wanted the selenium toning to produce miracles or a drastic shift in colour, I can already say that I’ve achieved (more or less) what I had in mind. At a dilution of 1+5, I liked the results best when using Fomabrom paper for 2 minutes. I imagine that the shadows in the prints developed with Adotol Constant are slightly ‘deeper’ and richer than those treated with Neutol WA/NE. But that could be misleading, especially as I’m now using a different lens and have increased the development time from 2 to 3 minutes (adjusting the exposure, of course).
In any case, the fact is:
- The blacks have been deepened
- this has increased the contrast, as well as the local contrast, which I find very pleasing, plus a slightly sharper impression
- the image tone at 2 minutes, depending on the light source, takes on a very slight reddish-brown-magenta hue (sounds illogical, but I can’t find any other terms), but it’s pleasant to my taste.
The exact processing time can of course be adjusted according to taste and subject; I’ll assume 2 minutes for now.
Just a quick note on Pius’s comment:
Of course you’re right, you have to experiment. But every bottle of fixer already has more precise instructions on processing and, above all, washing, and I expect the same here. After all, you’re subjecting the print to a new chemical and should be informed about its effects and limitations. What’s still unclear to me is:
- how long do you need to rinse after a selenium bath?
- does it make a difference to the rinsing time whether you use an acidic, neutral or alkaline fixer beforehand?
- should you rinse under running water or in a bath?
- Does the temperature matter?
Since selenium toner is used specifically to increase durability, these are important details that I would expect to find on a leaflet or label.
Otherwise, I don’t want to be a grumbler, but am looking forward to a new experience and improved images. Perhaps one or two of you might be able to answer my outstanding questions.
Thanks and best regards,
Morte
piu58
> How long should you rinse after a selenium bath?
You should rinse as you normally would, just as you do after standard fixing. In other words, baryta papers need a thorough rinse, whereas PE paper is much less demanding.
Incidentally, you must also rinse very thoroughly before toning, as any silver thiosulphate that hasn’t been washed out will cause dark toning and produce fog.
Morte
You need to rinse it thoroughly, just as you would after a standard fixing process. In other words, baryta papers require a full rinse cycle, whereas PE paper is much less demanding.
Incidentally, you also need to rinse very thoroughly before toning, as any unwashed silver thiosulphate will cause dark toning and produce fog
Ah, so the paper stays in the water forever then. I use the Rollei RXN neutral fixer because it lets me halve the usual soaking time. That becomes irrelevant with this method, doesn’t it?
In that case, it might be better if I stick to my usual routine and occasionally have a day with selenium toner, when I soak and tone the collected and dried prints. The advantage of the shorter washing time is not only supposed to be a saving of time and water, but also to prevent the paper from warping too much.
TiMo
Hello Morte,
You write
- at 2 minutes, depending on the light source, the image tone takes on a very slight reddish-brown-magenta hue (sounds illogical, but I can’t think of any other terms), but it’s pleasant to my taste.
For me, though, the density recedes again once toning sets in. Isn’t that the case for you?
Best regards, Tim
TR
Incidentally, the print must be thoroughly wet before toning, as any silver thiosulphate that hasn’t been washed out will also tone dark and cause fog
I have seen ochre-coloured dots or patches form on the print if the paper is not rinsed sufficiently before using selenium toner. If you rinse almost not at all, or for only about 5 minutes, at least the Fomabrom takes on an ‘ivory’ hue. It then looks like one of those strange warm-tone papers with a coloured backing. This could perhaps be used to achieve certain effects.
The advantage of the shortened washing time is not only supposed to be a saving of time and water, but also to prevent the paper from warping too much.
I do not believe that reducing the wetting time by perhaps 50% improves the flatness during drying, assuming that a ‘normal’ wetting time for baryta paper is around 50 minutes.
piu58
> If you don’t rinse it at all, or only for about 5 minutes, at least the Fomabrom takes on an ‘ivory’ hue
That’s it! The base still contains silver thiosulphate and is being developed.
bernhardmangelsgmxde
Incidentally, the print must be thoroughly wet before toning, as any silver thiosulphate that hasn’t been washed out will also tone dark and cause fog
I have seen ochre-coloured dots or spots form on the print if the paper is not rinsed sufficiently before using selenium toner. If you rinse almost not at all, or for only about 5 minutes, at least the Fomabrom takes on an ‘ivory’ hue. It then looks like one of those strange warm-tone papers with a coloured backing. This could perhaps be used to achieve certain effects.
The advantage of the shortened washing time is not only supposed to be a saving of time and water, but also to prevent the paper from warping too much.
I don’t believe that reducing the wetting time by perhaps 50% improves the flatness during drying, assuming that a ‘normal’ wetting time for baryta paper is around 50 minutes.
... I have very little experience with baryta, but I believe I have observed exactly that. So I made two prints in succession, then washed them together; the second print was flat, the first was wavy at the edges. The times were roughly in the same order of magnitude, so the first print was in the water for 20–30 minutes longer than the second, and the washing (with 8 water changes) took about the same time as well.
But as I said: I don’t have the empirical basis to stake my reputation on that statement right now.
Morte
But for me, the density fades again once the toning sets in. Isn't that the case for you?
Regards, Tim
Hi Tim,
no, I haven’t observed that.
- With Fomabrom (baryta), the blacks were deeper at 2 minutes despite a noticeable shift in tone than on the untoned print. However, the print hasn’t taken on a different colour. You could describe it more as a ‘change in mood’ towards warmer, deeper shadows. This doesn’t affect the highlights, but it does affect the light grey tones.
- With Fomatone (PE), everything happened much faster. Here, after 30 seconds, there was initially a ‘discolouration’ away from the greenish undertone towards a more or less neutral black with deepened blacks. After 2 minutes, everything had shifted very clearly – and, for my taste, too strongly – towards a rust/chocolate colour; here, the depths had actually diminished. After 5 minutes, there was no significant difference; the most significant changes therefore occurred between 0 and 30 seconds (neutralisation/deepening of the shadows) and then between 30 seconds and 2 minutes (strong colouration, weakening of the shadows).
Of course, Fomatone is a completely different paper to Fomabrom, in addition to the different base material.
piu58
I had exactly the same experience with warm-tone paper. First, the image experienced an increase in density, taking on an aubergine hue, and after about 1–2 minutes it began to turn brownish-red, whilst the shadows lightened at the same time. With this type of paper, it’s certainly worth increasing the toner dilution to give yourself more time to control the process.
TR
With Fomabrom (baryta), the blacks were deeper after 2 minutes than on the untoned print, despite a noticeable shift in tone.
When wet, a ‘deepening’ of the blacks is striking and welcome. However, if you assess the two test strips (toned / untoned) when dry, you will notice the following: at least with Fomabrom, the density of the blacks will differ only marginally. With a warm-tone paper (something from Rollei – “Vintage”), the difference was also striking when dry. But Fomabrom achieves a high maximum black even without toner – just not until it has dried. With selenium toner – at least if you don’t want to give the paper
a magenta cast – it is hardly possible to ‘deepen’ the blacks or increase the local contrast. These are my test results (the developer used was Neutol W or a replica ‘Adotol WA’).
Best regards,
Thomas
Morte
Hello T.R.,
I cannot confirm that. I compared all the test strips and prints, once dry, with the untoned ones and came to my conclusions. The differences were quite clear.
I toned prints that had been developed using Adotol Constant, Neutol NE and Neutol WA.
