pittyman
Hello, fellow lovers of analogue photography!
I’m on the lookout for a paper developer that, when used with ADOX Fine Print Nuance,
produces a slight brownish-black tone in the shadows and mid-tones, ideally without
causing the highlights to take on a brownish hue. At the moment, I’m developing Nuance in Moersch ECO, but
I’m not entirely happy with the very neutral tone it produces for some subjects.
However, if you push the ECO to its limits (increased bromide content), the shadows appear
in a deep brown after drying, which can only be distinguished from normal black in a direct comparison
.
This would be the ideal image tone I’m looking for. e.g. http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/galerie/variot/34
I’ve already tried Neutol WA, but even with that, the Nuance comes out rather neutral = cold for me.
Do you have any tips for me, perhaps with an example?
Best regards
Dirk
MiJa
Hi Dirk,
I’m afraid I’ve only just seen your post...
I’ve had exactly the same experience and can only confirm it.
As a (former) Agfa Record Rapid 111 enthusiast, one has certain preferences, and one of these – as you described in your question – is a slightly brownish tint to the paper’s warm-toned black. Fortezo Museum Weight was also good, but not as consistent as Agfa.
I’ve now ‘tested’ various papers and developers (including Moersch 2 SE Warm) and combinations of these, but apart from a ‘richer’ black, I haven’t been able to alter the warm tone.
I don’t want to tone, so the search continues. As a last resort, I’m still testing Adox MCC 110; after that, I’ll stick with Rollei Vintage 131, which isn’t brownish either, but very idiosyncratic...
Should you eventually find the answer, do let us – or at least me – know!
Regards from Kön
Michael
pittyman
Hi Michael,
Finally, someone else who’s had experience with NUANCE. Could you list which developers you’ve used with the
paper? That might save me a few steps.
I’ve also sent our host a private message in the meantime. No reply yet, but I’m sure
one will come. ADOX must have had a reason for marketing the NUANCE as a warm-tone paper. What makes me
wonder, though, is that there’s absolutely no sign of it shifting to a warmer tone in ADOX Liquid WA.
Let’s see what Mirko says about it when he has a few minutes to spare. I really like the paper and would love
a slightly warmer tone.
If none of that works, I’ll try a few recipes for warm-tone developers and mix some myself. We’ll see...
Dirk
MiJa
Hi Dirk,
Just a quick update on my experiments: I used Adotol WA and Moersch SE Warm developers, both in concentrated and diluted solutions.
Papers:
- Adox Nuance Baryt Fixed Gradient
- Adox Variotone Premium
- Adox MCC 110
- Bergger CB
- Rollei Vintage 131
- Rollei Vintage 331
So, all of these are described as ‘warm-tone papers’, and the developers are warm-tone developers.
As I mentioned before, I used to use (back in the day) Agfa Record Rapid 111 in Neutol WA. Later, for cost reasons, I also used Fortezo. That was fine too, but the quality wasn’t always consistent.
I haven’t been able to produce that very subtle yet distinctly recognisable (and, in my opinion, beautiful) brownish warm tone in the colouration – that is, the actual image-forming black – with any of these papers in this developer combination. To me, all the papers are ‘neutral black’, more or less ‘rich’; I’m at a loss for words to describe it...
It doesn’t seem to be down to the developer either, as Neutol WA and Adotol WA are supposed to be virtually identical in composition, yet the desired effect is absent on the papers tested (at least for me...).
I won’t be starting to tone; I’m not going through that mess again... besides, the effect isn’t what I’m looking for!
At the moment I’m dabbling with Rollei Vintage 131 in Adotol WA, even though I read here (thanks again to my colleagues!) that the Foma is the one called Rollei. But in the description I read ‘...warm tone verging on greenish...’, which isn’t quite right...
Rollei Vintage 131 has an ‘ivory’ base, which some colleagues would surely describe as ‘yellow’; I just don’t see a pure white base there. The impression of the colour, i.e. the blackness, is – as I see it – positively influenced towards the warm side.
It’s also very difficult to dry flat; the paper remains very wavy despite the surface being quite rough in places...
But anyway: that oh-so-desired slightly brownish warm tone just won’t appear!
If you or any of your colleagues have the ultimate tip – I’d also be happy to buy larger batches of fresh (!) 24/30 and 30/40 RR111 in a gradient two at extremely favourable prices – please let me know...
Regards from Kön
Michael
PS.: Just a quick note:
All the papers are good! I particularly liked Bergger and Variotone in the slightly thicker Adotol WA – very sharp, very nice detail, they develop well even after prolonged soaking in the developer, and become reasonably flat.
And of course Rollei Vintage 131...
pittyman
Hello Michael,
You’re right, the paper emulsion sets the tone. But: if someone is
selling warm-toned paper, they should have good reasons for doing so. So far, I’ve held our
hosts in high regard, and I hope for a prompt explanation. If the NUANCE were sold as neutral/
cool-toned, people like us wouldn’t be asking silly questions. Bottom line:
it’ll turn out warm somehow, but how?! Anything else would be a rip-off and
flowery advertising promises...
I’m familiar with the Elfenbein Vintage too, and it’s not at all to my
taste. I’m only vaguely familiar with the AGFA Record Rapid, so not really.
My personal favourite on the warm-tone scale is the old ORWO Baryt, though
unfortunately that’s no longer available either. A shame...
Dirk
PS.#1 I’m very surprised that the Variotone Premium (also ADOX)
was classified as neutral/cool in your case too. I’ve never tried it, but according to the description,
“Warm-tone baryta paper on a pure white base. This paper is produced in cooperation
with Harman Technology and Wolfgang Moersch and features a
beautiful warm tone combined with perfect toning properties.”
That sounds even more like a warm tone than the Nuance. Well, we’ll have to wait and see. I’m sure
Mirko will pop round in the next few days and hopefully have a tip to hand.
PS.#2 Nuance, still slightly damp with emulsion on the screen, after drying for a day
and pressed for 24–48 hours between heavy books, produces smooth baryta prints for me.
Sandra
Hello Dirk and Michael,
Steve Anchell’s *Darkroom Cookbook* includes a recipe for a developer that’s supposed to produce warm, brown tones. If you’re open to making your own chemicals, this might be an option.
Oh, I’ve just found the formula on apug:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum222/33808-gevaert-g-261-warm-tone-glycin-developer.html
Hot Gevaert G.261
(I’m taking the liberty of linking to apug because the two forums are on friendly terms and FOTOIMPEX sponsors apug – I hope Mirko doesn’t mind.)
Otherwise, I’d also noted down Defender 55D; perhaps you could have a go at searching for the formula on Google. It’s a portrait developer; according to the book mentioned above, it produces subtle, brown blacks and a lovely tonal range with soft transitions.
Dirk, the image you linked to in Mr Moersch’s photo gallery is really great. Superb tonal quality.
[size="1"](My all-time favourite image is this one: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/galerie/se1sepia/8, but that’s just a side note, as it’s not relevant to the topic.)[/size]
Mirko will certainly be able to help you, though.
Best regards
Sandra
pittyman
Hi Sandra, I’d already had my eye on those two recipes. There are plenty more in
Anchel’s book. Whether they’ll work just as well with today’s ‘modern’
papers remains to be seen.
MirkoBoeddecker
Hello everyone,
Nuance is a silver bromide-silver chloride paper and is therefore capable of producing a similar warm tone to MCC when used with normal-warm developers.
This means that, when compared directly under good lighting, the warm tone is visible in the blacks.
This has been referred to as a ‘warm tone’ for a hundred years.
However, there are now papers that become very warm. Either through a coloured emulsion or, as with Polywarmton, through a special filling technique.
Fomatone 131 (also available as Rollei) has a coloured emulsion. The paper is warm even without development, or rather becomes very warm in any developer.
In the product descriptions, I’ve tried to distinguish this by stating that MCC and Nuance are neutral- to warm-tone papers, whilst for Foma it is described as ‘can be controlled from slightly warm to very warm’.
I’ll try to clarify this further in a consistent manner for all warm-tone papers.
The product descriptions weren’t written in a single day, but over the years. I’ve just noticed that the Fomatone description still refers to ‘poly-warm tone’ (sigh).
Best regards,
Mirko
pittyman
Hi Mirko,
Everything’s fine, don’t worry!! Just to be clear: so ‘warm tone’ doesn’t automatically mean brown instead of black?
I’m sure you still remember ORWO paper. When used with standard developers like ECO, Neutol and the like,
it produces a very slight brown tint instead of black. And even that’s only visible in a direct comparison. What kind of emulsion
did ORWO use?
I’m asking and nagging for a very specific reason:
I really like FOTOIMPEX and think the Bad Saarow project is absolutely brilliant. That’s why I try to spend my money
with ADOX wherever possible rather than buying cheaper paper made in the Eastern Bloc (Rollei, Wephota & Co.)
. Meaning: Mirko, I don’t want Foma, I want a warm ADOX!! Does Variotone produce the desired
tone, or is there another way to push the tone into warmer territory right from the development stage?
Damn, I ordered some CHS25 roll films this morning – there would have been room for a pack of Variotone as well... :blink:
Best regards from Elbflorenz
Dirk
MirkoBoeddecker
In terms of its warm-tone characteristics (BN, not BarytBrilliant), ORWO is the closest to MCC.
The Nuance should at least be on a par with it, though.
I’ll have to test it myself again. Not that the stabilisers have been changed.
We don’t test things like that on an ongoing basis. We only test standard photographic properties: fog, speed, gradient.
Variotone is also similar to ORWO.
Best regards,
Mirko
pittyman
Hi Michael and Mirko,
I’ve just taken the Nuance off the press and what can I say?! :)
Yes, Mirko, we’re such idiots! The Nuance has such a warm tone – that’s all
I need.
It’s actually explained in minute detail
here
&
here
, and yet, out of
habit, I mixed the developer 1+7 (just as it says on the bottle).
But further down with Nuance it says:
No economy dilution!!
Conclusion:
Adotol LIQUID WA 1:4 at 20°C, exposure time with a fresh batch 10–15 seconds.
Developed for 120 seconds and after drying – YES, the tone is simply marvellous!!
Mirko: If I want to go a bit wild now and develop the Nuance in a two-bath process,
which developer combination would you recommend without losing the warm tone?!
Adotol WA + cheese, and which is the first and which the second bath?
Best regards from Dresden
Dirk
MiJa
...my goodness, anyone who can read definitely has the upper hand!
My next stop is the Duka...
Greetings from Kön
Michael
sputnik
It’s actually explained in great detail
here
&
here
, and yet,
out of habit, I mixed the developer 1+7 (as it says on the bottle).
But further down on the Nuance page it says:
No economy dilution!!
Conclusion:
...goodness me, anyone who can read clearly has the advantage!
Reading is a skill that needs to be learnt, too.
For Adotol WA, 1+7 does not mean an economy dilution at all. That’s already in bold. An economy dilution would be 1+15.
This was already the case back in the Agfa days, when Adotol WA was still called Neutol WA.
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Chemie/Papierentwickler/ADOTOL/ADOTOL_WA.html
Regards
S.
MirkoBoeddecker
Hello everyone,
It really depends. That’s what I was trying to explain in my first post.
Siegfried is right that 1+4 is quite strong, but if that gives you the warm tone you’re looking for, then that’s exactly what you need.
You should never stick rigidly to what’s written on the bottles or in the tables. Sometimes you have to overshoot the mark to see where the limits are.
There’s also something important in the footnote of Siegfried’s link: the warm tone is lost if the WA comes into contact with the fixer.
Perhaps your new approach has also eliminated such a problem and 1+7 would work just as well.
Good luck!
Mirko
pittyman
Hi Mirko,
The idea that a richer mixture might help came to me whilst looking through recipes for warm-tone
developers. Usually, the tone is adjusted via the mixture, and it’s not uncommon for the mixture to be
1:3 or even richer. With Adotol WA, this works really well. A 1:8 ratio already conjures up
a very slight warm tone (brownish-black) with Nuance, whilst at 1:4 things really take off once it dries.
Any other tips on two-bath development for achieving a warm tone? Could Centrabrom work?
Best regards from Dresden
Dirk
