MiJa
Hi there,
After a long break from the darkroom, I’m back in the thick of it again! I’ve been looking at my old prints again, and bang! I’m hooked all over again!
And since Agfa products are unfortunately no longer available, I’m looking for a suitable (!) replacement for the excellent and dearly loved Record Rapid 111. The Fortezo Museum Wight FS14 has been a decent substitute so far.
Initial trials with Adox Nuance, Variotone and Bergger CB did indeed yield perfectly acceptable results, but they just didn’t have THAT warm tone I know from the RR111 (and would like to have again...). Comparing new prints with the ‘old’ ones clearly shows the difference in warmth: the RR111 is browner and, well, ?, richer?! Developers: Adox Adotol WA and Moersch SE WA; different approaches.
Now I occasionally read about Rollei Vintage 131 or 331. Rollei is hardly going to produce the sheets themselves – who could it be?
I’m also having considerable trouble drying the sheets flat; I suppose I need a bit more practice before I can get the same flatness as with RR111 or FMW!
And now, the very important question for the group: what has been your experience here with the Rollei paper mentioned? And which RR111 substitute do you recommend?
Thanks in advance for any information!
Regards from Cologne
Michael
piu58
... Rollei Vintage 131 or 331.
These are Foma papers; 131 is baryta and 331 is PE. I’ve processed a few packs of the latter. The base has a slight ivory tint; it’s a silver-rich warm-tone paper, so it takes toning well but is hard-wearing (as it has a fine grain, which is what gives it its warm tone).
Tandemfahren
Hi Michael,
I’d also recommend you get involved in the Polywarmton project:
http://www.polywarmton.com/Deutsch/Deutsch/Registrieren.php
Forte Polywarmton was – as I always say – ‘God’s paper’!
Best regards,
Frank
MiJa
Hi Frank,
Forte Polywarmton was –
as
I always say – ‘God’s paper’!
Well, with all that praise, I can’t help but join in…
Seriously though: is there any ‘newer’ information on that yet?
Regards from Cologne,
Michael
MirkoBoeddecker
...but insensitive (as it has a fine grain, which is what gives it its warm tone)
Hello Uwe,
According to the information I have, Fomatone is a coloured emulsion that produces virtually no warm tone due to its grain size.
This is also evident in the very slight difference in image tone between warm- and cold-tone development, or rather in the resulting very warm tone with cold-tone development.
Have you had different results?
I’d be interested to know, as I don’t use the paper myself and my tests were carried out two years ago.
Best regards,
Mirko
piu58
Dear Mirko,
I’m not a big fan of warm tones; this paper just ‘fell into my lap’. That’s why my views on it might not be entirely accurate. I’m comparing it with Variant III.
Viewed from the back, there’s no greater difference than there is between the various batches of Variant. Viewed from the front, it is yellowish: so, as you say, a coloured emulsion (not a coloured base). Furthermore, the image tone is noticeably warmer and reacts much more clearly to selenium toner: Variant becomes slightly cooler and higher in contrast, that’s all. Even with very long toning, this does not change.
331 initially becomes much higher in contrast and moves towards a normal image tone without quite reaching it. With very long toning, the shadow density decreases again and the image tone becomes reddish-brown.
The paper is also much less sensitive, by a factor of about 10.
michael-kielgmxnet
...but insensitive (because of the fine grain, which is what gives it its warm tone)
Hello Uwe,
According to the information I have, Fomatone is a coloured emulsion that produces virtually no warm tone due to its grain size.
This is also evident in the very slight difference in image tone between warm-tone and cool-tone development, or rather in the resulting very warm tone with cool-tone development.
Have you had different results?
I’d be interested to know, as I don’t use the paper myself and my tests were carried out two years ago.
Best regards,
Mirko
I can’t confirm that. You can see a clear difference when performing development in a warm-tone developer such as Neutol WA and in a cool-tone developer (Moersch SE6).
Fomatone also reacts very strongly to selenium toner; the slightly greenish warm tone shifts towards cooler brown tones.
MiJa
Hello everyone,
That’s looking pretty good already...
@ Uwe: How does the Rollei paper compare to Agfa Record Rapid 111?
@ everyone: that’s precisely (for me) the problem with the current papers: that crisp sharpness, high contrast, the base that isn’t pure white, and the warm tone that leans slightly towards brownish – not greenish – plus the flatness were convincing to me back then, despite the price not exactly being moderate... and all that without any mandatory post-processing!
I still like the Bergger best; I’d describe the image/warm tone as a ‘rich neutral black’.... next up is a test with the Rollei sheets.
What do you lot use as an alternative? Or can I forget about the Agfa dream again?
Best regards from Cologne
Michael
MirkoBoeddecker
Hello Michael,
As far as the base and flatness are concerned, all papers are similar these days, as they are all cast on the last remaining base.
The MCC in Neutol (now Adotol) WA offers a light warm black without a greenish cast. It also produces high detail contrast (crispness).
Agfa has, in fact, just attempted to launch the MCC as a replacement for Brovira AND Record Rapid, featuring multi-contrast and being cadmium-free.
However, we do not colour the base (which further benefits, for example, the contrast range and detail contrast).
On a coloured base, the following are available:
Fomatone / Rollei (but this has a greenish cast due to the coloured emulsion)
Ilford MG Warmtone
Bergger Warmton
are available.
Polywarmton also had a white base (except for PW17, but that was Chamois).
ADOX Variotone also has a pure white base.
Best regards,
Mirko
MiJa
...yes, hello, Mirko, and everyone else, my goodness, "...we’re here to help you...", wonderful!
I’d also tried out the Variotone and Bergger, and I really liked both of them; however – and this is, of course, my own subjective opinion – they’re more ‘neutral’ than ‘warm’, however you define that...
But I’ve now tested this Rollei Vintage 131 and 331, and as things stand, it looks like it’ll be the 131! The 331 seems to me to have a backing that’s too pure white; the 131, with its warm tone and backing that isn’t pure white, is very much to my taste, all in Moersch WA.
And it dries flat without any problems!
I think this image tone suits ‘my’ landscapes best.
Now I just need to find out what the paper is called...
Best regards from Cologne
Michael
piu58
Now I just need to find out what the paper is called...
It’s Fomatone MG 131.
