TiMo
I’d like to ask you about your experience with selenium toner for deepening the shadows.
I use ADOX selenide at a dilution of 1:10 at 10°C. I use ADOX MCP 310 (glossy) paper and Moersch Eco as the developer.
After about 30 seconds in the toner, I get a fairly subtle effect. The print loses its slight greenish cast and may become slightly darker in the shadows. I say ‘may’ because I’m not sure whether it actually becomes darker or whether it just appears that way due to the green cast disappearing.
After a minute, the image turns brownish.
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TR
Hi TiMo,
Does your paper really turn brownish, or is it more of a magenta tinge? In my experience (with Fomabrom), the selenium toner always makes the paper look cooler – depending on the processing time, dilution, etc. However, the paper doesn’t become warmer (brownish).
I set aside an afternoon for a series of tests and achieved the best result – barely any colour shift in the paper whilst increasing the Dmax – at around 20 °C in a 1+29 dilution with a processing time of 1.5 minutes (constant, gentle agitation). I also use the ADOX selenium toner.
The green cast in the paper, which was previously barely noticeable, also disappears; everything appears more sharp, with higher contrast, better. BUT please compare a test strip that has already dried with a dry selenium-toned one: the difference will now be much smaller than when wet, because even as it dries, the paper (at least mine) loses the ‘green cast’, has slightly increased sharpness, and the Dmax increases. Whilst one might be pleased with the supposed improvement in quality from a selenium toner whilst the paper is still wet, the difference will no longer be so great once it is dry.
I still tone my prints, even if the visual effect is minimal, because even the 1+29 solution of the ADOX selenium toner keeps for several weeks in the bottle and the toning process is quick. Please rinse thoroughly before toning, otherwise you’ll get purple spots.
Incidentally, A. Adams recommends that the final wash should not be at a higher temperature than the selenium toner, otherwise its effect would disappear again (I don’t recall the exact details).
In general, however, it is advisable to carry out your own tests for your own ‘material combination’. It’s fun and you’ll be rid of any doubts.
Regards, Thomas
TR
Double post
TiMo
I’ve included a photo in the first post. Ironically, the difference is more noticeable in the scanned image than in real life, whether in sunlight, in the shade or under a neon light.
The top section is 30 seconds, the middle section is none at all, and the bottom section is 60 seconds under the conditions mentioned in post 1.
Thomas, all my observations refer to the dried state.
Magenta cast? There is a slight magenta cast when the colour changes, but I don’t find it dominant (it looks more magenta in the scan than on the print).
I’ve never rinsed before toning, but put the dry prints straight in. There have never been any stains so far.
Best regards
MirkoBoeddecker
Thomas, Tim,
Your experiences are pretty much exactly what one would expect.
The extent of DMax optimisation varies depending on the paper and developer used.
Selentoner is not intended for ‘toning’. It is mainly used for image silver stabilisation and, possibly, for DMax optimisation.
Best regards,
Mirko
TiMo
The extent of the DMax optimisation varies depending on the paper and developer used.
That’s exactly what interests me. Which developers respond strongly to it and which don’t.
Selentoner isn’t intended for ‘toning’. It’s mainly used for image silver stabilisation and possibly for DMax optimisation.
Although I do find that in some subjects, toning can be quite appealing.
michael-kielgmxnet
Generally speaking, the toning effect is more pronounced on warm-tone papers than on neutral-tone papers. In my opinion, ADOX MCP does not react as strongly to different developers either. With diluted Neutol WA, you can just about coax a hint of warm tone out of it; with Moersch SE6, it takes on a slightly blue-black tone. The cooler the initial tone, the less noticeable the selenium toner will be.
If, however, you want a strong brown shift, you can use a more heavily diluted selenium toner and tone for a very long time; then the tone does indeed shift towards brown.
It also becomes interesting when you bleach a selenium-toned print – a spatial residual image remains, determined solely by the silver selenide formed in the toner.
TiMo
Hello Michael,
So is MCP classified as a neutral-tone paper?
What about the use of selenium toner on negatives? I’ve actually only ever read about its use on paper. It was only briefly mentioned in the Adams book that it’s also used on negatives. Is that still recommended, or is it outdated?
piu58
What is the situation regarding the use of selenium toner on negatives? I’ve actually only ever read about its use on paper. It was only briefly mentioned in the Adams book that it is also used on negatives. Is this still recommended, or is it outdated?
Selentoner has three effects:
- The image tone changes
- the covered areas become denser
- the longevity is improved
The last two effects can be usefully applied to negatives: Negatives that are too flat become a little harder, though the shadow density does not increase noticeably (no gain in sensitivity). And, of course, improved longevity, lasting for centuries.
TR
Could anyone recommend a dilution ratio in this situation, if I want to use selenium toner to boost the contrast of a negative that’s a bit too soft? I was thinking of trying a 1:9 ratio. Or perhaps a more concentrated solution? It’s not as if I can do any harm.
Thomas
piu58
Could anyone recommend a dilution ratio if I want to use selenium toner to boost the contrast of a negative that’s a bit too soft? I’d like to try 1+9. Or perhaps a stronger concentration? It can’t do any harm, after all.
Thomas
1+9 is fine. Try 2–5 minutes, somewhere in that range. You’ll see a clear increase in density.
TiMo
Selenium toner has three effects:
- The tone of the image changes
- The shaded areas become denser
- The longevity is improved
The last two effects can be put to good use with negatives: Negatives that are too flat become a little harder, though the shadow density does not increase noticeably (no gain in sensitivity). And, of course, the improved longevity means they’ll last for centuries.
Thanks, Uwe. I’m surprised that one doesn’t read more often about the use of selenium on negatives. It seems quite practical.
Could discolouration of the negative occur?
piu58
The negative can’t start to discolour?
What do you want to do with it? At best, there will be a slight change in behaviour with multigrade papers.
TiMo
What are you going to do with that? At best, it will result in a slight change in behaviour with multi-grade papers.
I want to avoid that.
MirkoBoeddecker
So is MCP classified as a neutral-tone paper?
No. Ilford MG IV, Cooltone and Forte Polygrade are neutral-tone papers, as they do not respond to warm-tone developers at all.
MCP and MCC react visibly. It is a matter of degree whether one says this is a little or a lot. No paper turns ‘properly’ brown solely through warm-tone development (at least not since Polywarmtone is no longer available).
Fomatone, Ilford MG Warmtone and ADOX Variotone are dyed emulsions. In other words, the warm tone is not produced physically by the grain size but by colorants. These papers cannot be developed neutrally.
At the moment, there are only two papers on the market that I am aware of which can physically produce a developer-dependent warm tone due to their grain size – in other words, which are genuine warm-tone papers – namely ADOX MCC/MCP and ADOX Nuance.
It also depends on the development time and temperature. We can see the differences clearly, especially in the shadows.
The aim was to move towards Record Rapid with Adotol WA / Neutol WA.
Nothing more was ever intended.
Not even in the Agfa days.
Best regards,
Mirko
tinman
Back to the question of colour shift: Kentmere VC produces a distinct violet cast when subjected to heavy toning (it doesn’t get any cooler than that); I experimented with Fomabrom Variant once and ended up with a distinct brown cast, which I didn’t like, though.
With both, the effect visibly diminishes after drying, but remains clearly visible. Oh, yes: I’ve also had the experience
mentioned earlier in A. Adams’s quote: if the wash water is warmer than the toner, the visible toning disappears completely.
piu58
1+9 is already quite concentrated. It has a strong smell of ammonia, too. Some people go as far as 1+3, but I wouldn’t do that. It’s better to extend the processing time.
You’ll gain about one stop of exposure, especially with low-speed films. With high-speed films, the effect is less noticeable.
